Transcript for Writing Your Resilience podcast Episode 86

The Fawning Trauma Response with Ingrid Clayton 

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:00:00]:
Well, hello Ingrid. I'm not going to say welcome to the podcast. I'm going to say welcome back to the podcast because this is your second time here and I am so excited to talk with you today.

Ingrid Clayton: [00:00:15]
Thank you for having me back. I love your work. I adore you. I'm really happy to be back today.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:00:26]:
Well, it's my pleasure, and normally I would hold up your book, but we are recording this before it actually launches. So, this is going to air during the week when your book launches, which I'm very excited about. So, we're going to talk about your new book, Fawning.

Ingrid Clayton: [00:00:36]:   
 You know what? I just got my uncorrected proofs in the mail yesterday and I had one sitting here. You please hold this up. 

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:00:47]:
Oh my. I love it. Goodness. There she's, yes. I'm super excited about it.Well, I can say as an early reader, your book is a must-read for anyone who has complex PTSD or knows they have the fawning trauma response. But I would also say that I think it's essential reading for everyone because we all know someone who operates in this way. And one of the things I want to talk with you about today is these terms—people-pleasing and codependence—and how your work has been personally helpful to me. But before we get to that, I'd love to hear from you. What you would like us to know about Fawning.

Ingrid Clayton [00:01:22]:
Well, to me, the fawn response is an extension of what most of us know of—fight, flight, and freeze, right—when we talk about trauma responses. And I would agree, I think anybody can and should read this book because it's really just a map of different ways that the body seeks safety, and that it does it in reflexive, unconscious, just really instinctual ways that happen in an instant, right?

Particularly when we're talking about relational trauma or just living in the hierarchies that all of us live in, right? The body sort of knows its pecking order. And if you're not at the top of that food chain, so to speak, the body might not go to the fight response because it knows actually fighting could make it worse. The people on the other side are stronger, have more power and more resources—all the other things.

And so, the fawn response is broken down into sort of appeasement or caretaking to stay relationally safe. When I learned about it in my own sort of crawling out from a lifetime of complex trauma that I didn't know was complex trauma, it just—it was one of the key pieces to being able to understand where I came from, what it did to me, and why I continued to repeat it over and over and over again.

My body essentially found safety primarily in the fawn response. And then not only did I feel comfortable or could tolerate other dysfunctional environments, I actually felt the safest in those relationships and environments because it's what turned the fawn response on in me, where I felt like I had a semblance of power or agency. And that's very confusing, right?

So, it helped me to understand why I had this history of dysfunctional relationships and why things like, “Well, Ingrid just set some healthy boundaries and grow some self-esteem,” and all these things that of course make so much logical sense. No one's sitting around going, “Well, I don't want to set healthy boundaries.” Right? Of course I did.

But setting a healthy boundary, again, was moving me back towards that more of a fight response where my body was like, that's not safe. That's not safe. And so, in this lens and language of the trauma landscape and what's happening in our nervous system and in our bodies, I could finally go, oh my gosh, I make sense.

I don't love to control people. I don't love making myself small and minimizing myself and self-abandoning. Nobody does, right? And yet, we are really stigmatized and pathologized. We have been for a long time. I think with language like some of the people-pleasing and, you know, particularly the older literature on codependency, I think it elevated the shame, which is already so high, and it keeps a lot of us stuck.

So, fawning allowed me to drop that shame a bit and go, oh my gosh, I have a genius body that came with these hardwired instructions that are ultimately designed to keep me safe. And I can't be mad at that, right?

And once I can go, okay, I make sense, then I go, and none of us are meant to live in survival mode all the time, right? Then I can start to seek a little more flexibility and find a little more space. But for me, it was only when I could drop into the truth of how this thing functioned and saved me and made perfect sense first.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:05:00]:
And that's what I love about your book. You break this down for all of us and you do it by sharing these clinical terms—helping us understand these things—but also sharing your personal story, which almost felt like a part two of Believing Me, which is your memoir, which I also love. And that's what we talked about last time—where you share kind of the breakdown scenes from your memoir, so we revisit your memoir and you share things like, “Here's what I would've done,” or “Here's how that worked.” You deconstruct it for us alongside some things that happened for your clients.

And for me personally, earlier in my life—let's see, 2004—I started going to Al-Anon. There is a way that that language was helpful in the moment because it was something. It gives you a framework of like, oh, this is what this is. And yet when you talk about that shame—oh my goodness—did I feel it. Because it felt like I had a choice. I was choosing to be a people-pleaser. I was choosing to be codependent, when that is absolutely not the case. These things were happening at that automatic brainstem level before I even had a chance to go like, wait a second, what did I just do?

Ingrid Clayton [00:06:30]:
That's right. And they worked, right? They were, in fact, the solution. And so now we're being blamed and shamed for having a solution that keeps a lot of us stuck in the same cycle—like, “Well, maybe I need to try harder, maybe I need to surrender more.” And for me, that actually just creates more of a need for the fawn response, because now I'm trying to “get better”—and I put better in air quotes—because we're not actually feeling better, but maybe we appear better for the group or for our therapist or for other people that are wanting us to be better.

We only actually get better at sounding better, at appearing better, but we're not actually feeling that authentic connection to self, the ability to have a voice no matter what it wants to say, right? We don't get to move around the cabin as freely as I think most of us want. So, thanks for sharing that personal piece of it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:07:23]:
I can't tell you how many people have shared something similar with me. And I love what you say about the fact that when you are engaging in the fawning response, it is reinforcing. So, something that was said to me for many, many years—and perhaps it was said to you as well in friendships and other relationships—it's like, “You're so easy to be around. You're so easy to be with.” Yeah. Because anyone who has no sense of self, no needs, no opinions—no anything—is incredible. Yeah. They get to just be a perfect mirror for you.

And yet it's an illusion. It's an illusion in terms of relationship for both you and that person. Developing those authentic relationships can be so hard because you have to recognize that this is happening.

Ingrid Clayton [00:08:14]:
That's right. Yeah. One of the clients that I share—her story in my book—she had someone tell her one time, “You're so agreeable,” and she thought it was a compliment. Like, “Well, thank you.” And they did not mean it that way. They meant it like, “Well, who are you? Where are you? You know, what's your opinion?”

But she was really raised to sort of go along to get along and to be the cheerleader for everybody else and put a smile on her face. Like so many of us, it never actually occurred to her that that wouldn't be anything but a compliment. And it was this like, oh, what if I wasn't so agreeable, right?

And for a lot of us, that question—even as I say it—ignites this anxiety. It ignites this little bit of fire like, “Oh no, right? I'm going to get in trouble.” That's my thing. I'm going to get in trouble. It's going to go bad.

Guarding against something very real—that's actually the work. Not just trying to march through and sort of do it differently and act like we have all these choices—but it's to go, “What is actually in the way of that? What is it igniting in me?” Can I even in this moment notice that? Just saying that out loud brought a feeling of terror in my body. And can I be present to that?

And even sharing it with you—it sort of takes away some of the charge. It takes away some of the shame. Puts me back in present time and place where I realize I'm not going to get in trouble. I'm 50 years old, right? But that's not the first thing that's going on. It just feels real.

That's the thing about trauma, right? And with complex trauma—what we've known about PTSD for so long is that when a combat veteran hears fireworks, they are back in combat. It is happening now. Yes.

And with complex trauma, just this idea of me having more of a voice, of me engaging in potential conflict and having an opinion that someone might—I'm back in active combat. I'm back in the active combat of my house, where having a voice, having an opinion—it made things so much worse. It made things so much worse.

So, I don't know. I feel like that's the piece that I want people to understand who maybe don't have this feeling in their own bodies—that this is what we're up against. There's a reason it's a trauma response—because it feels like life or death in our body. These animal instincts that make so much sense. When you look in the animal kingdom, you don't want the animal to stop and go, “Am I being ridiculous right now?” Right? Like, “Maybe I'm overthinking this.” No, the animal just bolts, right? Or they freeze.

And our bodies do the same. They do the same with fawning. It's just immediate. It's instinctual because we feel threatened. And there are so many reasons—and I tried to sort of highlight a lot of them—but there's no way I could speak to everything. There's a lot of reasons that a lot of us feel threatened all the time.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:11:14]:
And I love that you're saying that because that idea of it feeling like life or death is certainly something I'm very familiar with. I recently had to say no to someone, and logically my brain knew no was the right response. But I had that sense of, “Oh my gosh, if I say no, I'm going to get in trouble. I'm going to get killed in some way. I'm going to have some sort of catastrophic thing happen.” And I had to work through all those feelings to get to the place where I could just say no. And then the person was like, “Great.”

Ingrid Clayton [00:12:00]:
I know, we never—we never see that coming. We never see the fine. Thank you. I'm really glad you were clear. We think that it’s always this catastrophic stuff that's sitting on our shoulders.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:12:15]:
I work with a lot of writers who are working on really tough stories. And you know, your memoir was a really tough story that you worked through, and the last time you were here, we talked about the writing process and what that was like for you—and getting feedback and revision. But I'm curious, as you went from that book to writing about this book, what it was like or how did the fawning trauma response impact you as you were doing this writing?

Ingrid Clayton [00:12:48]:
Yeah, it's such a great question. So, I couldn't have written this book if I didn't write the memoir first. First of all, that's—you know, the memoir was my initial healing from complex trauma of just externalizing it enough to get it onto the page so I could see the bits and pieces, right?

And now we're a couple years out and fawning was a big discovery for me in the memoir writing, right? So, I'm sort of working with that and taking it into my practice and distilling these things. And I also—I'll say for the writers—that I had no intention of ever seeking an agent. I was thrilled with self-publishing. I didn't even think I'd ever write another book. I was like, there's nothing else, right? That's it.

Then there was an issue with my memoir that was bigger than something I could tackle on my own. And so, I did end up reaching out to an agent that I had talked to on and off over the years who was just so kind that I knew I could ask for help. And I did.

And in that conversation and revisiting my memoir, she said, “Big publishing wants a book on the fawn response.” And just as my body can light up with terror, it can light up with a sheer knowing—and that's what happened. I have to write that book. I have to do it. And immediately it seemed I had signed with her and her co-agent and, you know, wrote a proposal for a book.

I'd never thought about writing this book, and yet I've been writing this book for 40 years. You know what I mean? It's like everything has led up to my ability to write this book. And in this kind of fast and furious process—you know, you go through and you're shopping it, and suddenly there's 14 meetings in like a span of 10 minutes, and there's a lot of interest.

That was so contrary to the memoir, right? Like I knocked on a million doors with the memoir and I got all no. And what was useful about that for me in the end—what was actually so healing—is that I had to validate my own story. This is huge for fawners, right? Because we don't really have a sense of autonomy.

We're constantly running our safety and experience through someone else's nervous system. Do you think it's a worthy story? Will you give me permission to have this voice? Am I going to be okay because you said so?

And what I ultimately did with self-publishing was say, I'm the only one who decides. And it was powerful, right? So, this is what I'm calling unfawning, right? It's sort of coming out of this like, well, I'm not going to keep waiting and hoping for whomever I'm giving that power to, to give me permission to be me. You know, I'm just going to do it.

And then from that place, I go, and I talk to all these publishers, and I still have that sense of self, right? It was like, this is who I am, this is what I have to say. If you want someone to write a traditional self-help book, it's not going to be me. I'm not going to perform helpfulness, which I think a lot of books end up doing because they want to be prescriptive and give you so many bullet points and do X, Y, and Z.

Yet, you and I started this conversation before we started recording with this very important piece of information, which is that your healing is going to look different than my healing, than anybody else who is listening. It’s so deeply individual, and my hope was to capture that through my story and my client stories and to really teach through story and not get caught in that trap of like, let me whittle it down to the, you know, the most common denominator so that someone can take that nugget.

I'm going to trust the reader—that they're going to take the story level and they're going to take exactly what they need, and they're going to know how to translate it to their own life. And only they can do it. I can't do it for them.

But somewhere along the way, I signed the book deal. Now we're off and running and there's suddenly that sense of like, I'm the belle of the ball—it starts to wane. Like, you go into this like, well, yeah, this is just—you're another author and it's another book, but it's this kind of book and we need you to do X, Y, and Z.

And I felt like, oh no, I'm going to have to cave on all the things that I felt so strongly about. Right? This is that kind of black-and-white thinking that we can do, of going like, I'm either going to hold onto myself or I have to lose myself completely.

And in the writing of this book was another opportunity for me to go, wait a second. I said from the very beginning, I was not going to write that kind of a book. And I had to really fight to hold on to—first of all, my client stories, because I have seven clients, some I've worked with for up to 16 years, that gifted me with the work that we've done together—essentially what? Their life story.

And I knew going in, I'm not going to chop these up into like tiny little vignettes. That, to me—and a lot of self-help books—feels like these math problems in your third-grade textbook, like, “If Jane and John got on a train…” Like it doesn't feel like it’s a real person.

And so, to retain that—this is a real person—I wanted to do longer-form stories. It's just one example of something I felt really strongly about. And then it seemed like, well, no, we kind of have to do it differently. And that was terrifying for me, right?

I have this great opportunity now—maybe I'm even going to lose it because I'm not going to be able to deliver. And at the end of this process, I feel so proud that I asked for help where I needed it from people that could give it—like, how do I retain these pieces that feel so important and meet these objectives at the same time?

I'd never done that, right? So, I had to ask for help from people that could give it, and I had to trust my body knowing—these are the ones who can help, and these are the ones that are trying to steer me toward another mission.

At the end of the day, the book that I turned in is the book that I set out to write. To me, it's already a major success for that reason alone. I hope that people pick it up, and I hope that they read it, but really, mostly I'm glad that I did not compromise on, again, what is 40 years of what needed to come onto the page—and the way that maybe only I could say it, right? Because it is deeply personal.

So fawning was all over the map with the book—who do I need to be to stay in your good graces? Right? Of course I wanted to do that. But I couldn't. If I wanted to write the book that I was meant to write, I had to risk it over and over again. And it was scary, but it was worth it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:19:34]:
Well, I can say as a reader, it was definitely worth it. What I love about this is that you allowed the writing process to be this healing modality for you, right? It wasn't just, I'm writing a book. It's like, no, I'm going to address and be with this fawning response. And the fact that you didn’t fawn your way through this was the success.

And now everything else that happens is the icing on the cake. It's wonderful. But what's great about that is that it keeps it from being about other people. Like it's not, “The success of the book has to come through you, the reader,” or “Through you, the publisher,” or “Through the metrics of whatever it is.” And who doesn't want the metrics, right? That's the—of course—the push and pull of it.

Ingrid Clayton [00:20:20]:
Right. It is. There's a genuine part of me that is interested and invested in the metrics—of course. And I experienced this with the memoir too. I have to put the truth and my healing at the very top of that pyramid, right?

Can I factor in metrics? Can I factor in goals? Can I factor in all these other things? Yes, of course. But when I put those above the truth and what feels like genuine healing and my voice—if you don't put the voice and the truth and the heart of it first—I kind of believe the metrics probably aren't going to come. And if they do, it's going to be a quick blip and then it's not sitting on the right foundation.

And that's what I had to choose over and over again. And I think that's what the unfawning process is. It’s choosing in this moment—and this moment—over and over and over again to sit with the discomfort that is arising when I go, I have to try to be me at any cost. And it feels like everything is on the line.

I shared this with the memoir, right? I'm going on Instagram and being like silly and irreverent. I was like, I'm going to lose everything. I'm going to lose all credibility. It's all going to go down the drain.

All my clients have shared this in this unfawning process—it feels like I'm jumping off a cliff. That's the kind of risk that I'm taking. And I had to do it again with this book and go, you know what? I have imposter syndrome just like everybody else. And there's this part of me that goes, “Oh, you're telling me that I should do it this way because this is what successful books like this—this is how they've done it.”

Of course a part of me wants to do that. But the other part of me knew—my gut knew—oh, you have to tell your story and your client stories in this way. And that's what we did.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:22:19]:
Yeah. And two things that are coming to mind is—number one—there is the skill with which we write, and there's the energy that we put into our books. Like, what is the energetic signature of our work?

You can have a lot of skills but not have the energetic signature. And I think the fact that you are prioritizing the right things establishes the right energetic signature, which is why your book was so successful. I mean, your book is successful regardless.

But the fact that you did your memoir, Believing Me—the fact that you did that as a self-published author—is humongous. And I think that is going to be what's going to make Fawning so successful: the fact that you are being really clear about, “No, I'm trusting my gut. I'm putting my healing at the top.”

And what it makes me think about is—you know, I talked about how the language of codependence and people-pleasing created some shame—but some things that were positive about 12 Step work is that idea of experience, strength, and hope, and how we heal from hearing someone else's story. It’s that personal experience of like, “Oh yeah, that's the part I can take,” or “That's the part that directly relates to me.” And no one is giving you advice.

I love that about your work because I think we live at a time—especially on Instagram, I think is a place where this is rampant—of, “You know, the three steps or the five steps or the one solution, and if you just do this thing…”

Ingrid Clayton [00:23:35]:
And if you have the fawning trauma response and you give someone five steps—oh, we're going to do it. We're going to do it. And that's—I guess the truth of it is that I did all the things. I did all the things, including becoming a trauma therapist, a clinical psychologist, right? I read all the books, I went to all the programs, I took all the questionnaires—I did it. And at the end of the day, I still largely felt the same.

And then—oh my gosh—what? There must really be something wrong with me, you know? And so, I want to just rewind a second, 'cause what you're saying feels so meaningful to me. I want to really take this in—when you're saying that there's a distinction between maybe your skills as a writer and this energetic signature that you're bringing.

This feels like the most profound thing that I really know in my bones. I do not have the skills as a writer that I wish that I did, certainly, right? But I know that I'm leading with what wants to come, in the way that my body wants to articulate it. And the same is true not just with the writing, but as a clinician.

This is the other reason I go; I can't write a big book on trauma. Like, who am I? Even though I have the letters after my name and some credentials. I don't speak like a lot of clinicians. I don't have that vocabulary. I don't—I'm not even interested in it, if I'm really honest. But it makes me feel like, well, then I can't convey—like, I can't break down the branches of the nervous system and the body and tell you all these things in a really like, specific way.

But what I have is this intuition and this energetic piece that you're talking about, that I'm privileging more and more and more in every area of my life. The more that I do it, the freer I feel. And then those other things don't even matter so much. It doesn't matter that I'm not that type of clinician or I don't speak that particular way or I don't have this particular voice on the page.

Because what I finally have—and you know me, I always get emotional when I get to the heart of the thing—what I finally have is me. Yes. Nobody else could do it the way that I do it or that you do it, right? It's like that's the whole point. It's the whole point.

So, for me, I just want to say this again because if you identify with the fawn response, I think this is a big juicy nugget that you're actually giving us here, which is: lean into the energetic signature—whatever that means to you. Whatever your field, whatever your interest or your passion—that's the thing.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:26:33]:
I love that you just said that, and yeah, I mean, I'm feeling it too because so many times—and I can speak for myself, I've seen this in my clients as well—we dismiss that thing, whatever that passion is. You know, it's like our passion tells us to do it one way, and then what we call the logic center, which is usually—I'm going to say—the fawning center, tells us to do it another way.

And we talk ourselves out of what is going to be most meaningful because we want to follow the best practices or follow what everyone else has told us is the right way. And we compromise ourselves, thinking the “right way” is the only way. But your way will only be right for you.

Right? And I think that's a hard pill to swallow, right? It's a tough message to sell because the other one—let's be honest—is much sexier and more compelling. Who doesn't want to hear, “Oh, I'm going to do these three things and that's going to free me forever”? I want that message. I wanted it so bad. I tried the three things.

And yet, this one—where you jump off a cliff and you trust that if your body told you to jump, then it's the right jump for you at the right time—is where the magic can happen that we've always wanted. It's in that risk. Yeah.

And so, I think it's about finding the skills—whatever those skills and the tools are for you—that are going to allow you to take that risk and to take that jump. And I love that you do not give us all the answers, but I'm wondering if, just here in the moment, you and I can share our experience, strength, and hope with everyone else in terms of how we are unfawning.

Because I'm just going to say, I have a feeling that you are starting an unfawning revolution. I really do.

Ingrid Clayton [00:28:31]:
Let's do it! Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think part of what you're saying is that I—I am making a very clear commitment to this unfawning process, and that is a big piece of it, right? It's sort of all my work is kind of focusing on this direction. I have the Unfawning Substack, and the book is coming out and all these things.

But how I do it—you know, you said, I wish I could capture exactly what you said—but it made me think that such a core piece of this is listening to our bodies. Yes. My body might say something different than yours, but even just in this conversation, there've been several moments where I go, whoa. Like I didn't know that my body was going to do that, but it did.

And when I pay attention, there's so much information there. Yes.

So, fawners are so attuned to other people—we don't even know that we're missing in the equation. We just automatically—we're hypervigilant. What are you doing? What do you need? And we see things coming like a mile in advance because we're watching all the patterns and the dynamics. And here we go.

But in that external focus, we've lost this internal gaze—this connection with ourselves and our gut. So, starting there as starting your own revolution, your own, you know, reclamation of self. It's like, well, who am I?

And it's maybe silly things. Some people say like, “What do I want to eat? And where do I want to go? And how did I like the movie?” You know what I mean? It's like—even just being willing to sort of take those steps.

But it's also these things of noticing—like that fire that came and that fear—that stuff terrified me for so long because I thought, that's not going to make sense to anyone, or I'm going to seem ridiculous. Or there's this fear of how I'll be perceived.

And of course, it's going to be perceived in this really horrible light, because I was perceived in a really horrible light, right? I was told I was selfish and a liar and a manipulator and “you made it all up” and “that didn’t really happen,” right?

So, for me, how I'm perceived feels very, very important. And it ignites that fawn response: “Who do you need me to be? Who do you need me to be?”

So, the genuine who I am can feel terrifying—truly. And I've seen it with my clients over and over. But the more that we make friends with that—whatever it is—and just trust it and go, “I'm going to trust my body. I'm going to trust that feeling, that nudge, that whatever it is, is there for a reason. And can I be with it even just a moment longer?”

And maybe we still judge it, but then—can we be with that? Can we notice that, “Well now I'm beating myself up for having that thing?”

So, it's not running from it or trying to escape it by doing it differently. It's just being with ourselves—hopefully with as much self-compassion as possible. But you know, I never do that perfectly. So, it's not all or nothing. It's not black and white. It’s a very messy middle of going, “Can I be with myself now?” “No, I can’t.” “Okay. I’ll try again tomorrow.” You know, I have lots of opportunities.

But that comes to mind—just listening and noticing, which is also the language of the nervous system. It's not thinking. It's not going, “Well, I know,” or “I'm going to figure it out”—something else that I've always tried to do. It's not cognitive. It's a noticing.

With the senses: What do I feel? What do I see? What do I hear? Right? Even as I say that I just took a spontaneous deeper breath, which means I'm moving into greater regulation. Just talking about leading with noticing in my senses created more regulation in my body.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:32:18]:
Yeah. I'm going to take a deep breath too. I love that you're talking about really connecting with the body—figuring out what the yeses and nos are at that body level, whether it's the clenching of a jaw or a burning in the gut, or any of the other experiences.

And I think—I’ve worked with a Somatic Experiencing person for a number of years—and I can get deep into a story and then he'll pause and say, "Hold on. How does that feel in your body?" Or "Did you notice this swimminess behind your eyes?" Or "Did you notice that you left the room in a way, even though you're still telling me the story?"

So, the more I get clear on not just what my body sensations are, but what are the yeses and nos inside myself, I’ve found that's been really helpful. And I’ve started learning about Human Design, which is this way of looking at yourself. And by the time this comes out, I will have had someone on the show who is a Human Design expert, so that will be really exciting.

And what I’ve found is that we all have yeses and nos in different parts of our body. And what was helpful for me personally with Human Design was to know that my yes and no comes from my sacrum—so like, a little below my belly button. That’s generally—people who have the makeup that I have—that's generally where it shows up.

Mine's a little bit higher, but what I noticed is that as I've been doing some other work, I often don't have connection with that part of my body. So, I've really been working to develop this connection with that part of my body to find that yes or no.

And the other thing I've been doing—it's a little bit like parts work—is that I have a fawning part of me. I will talk to the fawning part of me, and I will listen to that fawning part of me because I know it's trying to keep me safe. And that's one thing you taught me, Ingrid.

And I'm going to tear up now—like, Ingrid, oh my gosh, I am going to tear up—because your work has helped me have more confidence in who I am. Your work has given me a resilient language to say thank you to these parts of myself, rather than having shame over these things that have been so automatic and were so necessary when I was growing up.

And everyone told me I was selfish, I was bad, I was destroying my family—I was doing all these things because I had a need, right? I had a need. So now I can talk to that part of myself and say, "Oh yeah, I see you. Oh, I see how you're trying to help me. How can we work together?" Versus me trying to push that part of myself away or deny that it exists.

Oh my God, this is my favorite thing of all time.

Ingrid Clayton [00:35:22]:
That's exactly, exactly it. I believe that fawning—in the parts work lexicon—is a protector. It's just a protector, right? And it believes that we need protecting all the time, and it's not willing to risk getting hurt again.

And when we can engage with it as a part—as a protector—we can be curious, like, "What are you afraid is going to happen?" And usually, it knows. It knows exactly what the thing is. And then we go, "Okay… oof," right? Like, we not only connect with it—we allow that part to connect with us.

And when the fawning part can feel the rest of me and can realize, oh my gosh—she is 50 and she is all these other things and she has done all this work—and oh, I feel your capacity, and oh yes, you have taken that risk and I can see that—only then will the fawn go, “Okay, I can let you take the wheel this time.”

Right? But not until that fawning part feels safe enough to do it.

And to your point, it's not by like beating it up with a stick and being like, “Get out of here.” Right? It's by going, “I see you. You make sense. Thank you. Yes. Thank you for always coming to my aid.”

When I think about that, I go—these parts that came online to protect us when no one else did. These parts that came online to protect us when we legitimately asked for help and were victimized instead. How can we then turn to the part and say, “You're bad and wrong,” and “What the hell is…”—you know what I mean?

It's like—this was the thing that showed up when no one else did. Right. I have so much gratitude and reverence and awe—quite frankly awe—that our bodies, again, without our consent or figuring it out, found a way. They found a way.

You know, we didn't go into this specifically, but it reminds me that fawning is a hybrid trauma response. So, it's one part fight and flight energy—it's very active, in other words, right? It's mobilizing. It's like, “I've got to lean in here, I've got to manage their mood, I’ve got to manage their perception, I’ve got to caretake, I’ve got to do all these things.”

The other half of that is the hypo-arousal. It’s the disconnect. It’s the dissociation. This is where the self-abandonment comes in.

What I would say is that for me, I think it’s recognizing both parts—that active part, and then also that disconnecting, divorcing part—that they're happening simultaneously, is important, because it doesn't just look one way.

So, I think that sometimes can be the most baffling piece of it—that we think, “Oh, I'm going to understand this because it's going to be fight, or it's going to be freeze. It's going to be one thing and it's going to look one way.” And it doesn't. It morphs us into whatever we need to be in that moment. Right?

And so, the way that I talk about that in the book is that—I think I was talking about the genius. The body knows that it can't lean too hard into the active mobilizing because it’s going to make things worse, but it also can’t shut down completely because it has to keep navigating this environment.

So, it’s threading this unbelievably fine needle, where it’s merging both of those things simultaneously.

And so, you know, if we look at the animal defenses in terms of the shutdown, animals will actually play dead. They go limp so that they can just hang in a predator’s mouth to hopefully still survive.

Fawning is playing life. That’s what it is. And I love it.

So, it looks differently depending on the situation that you're in, in any given moment, right? It’s why—even after writing the book—sometimes I go, how do I define it or talk about it? Because it manifests so differently depending on the individual.

It’s also why having a variety of client stories was so important—because each of them has a different experience of fawning. And yet, you ask each of them, and they go, “Yep, I’m a fawn.”

One of the things you said that is important is that it’s not that it looks, you know, different for each individual. I think it looks different depending on the situation.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:41:00]:
And I think that’s some of the stuff that you do so well in your book and then—and in all the other things that you share—is that you break these things down for us so that we can begin to say, “Okay, oh, it is this complex response. It is both active and passive in certain ways—or hypoactive.”

And so, how is it manifesting in me in these different relationships? Because it is part of relational trauma, right? So, it’s happening in relationships. It’s not generally happening when you’re by yourself.

Ingrid Clayton [00:41:39]:
Yeah, that's right. One of the stories in my book—she’s one of my clients—was this… she’s a phenomenal solo rock climber, right? And there was this moment in our work together where she goes, “I know why I loved climbing all by myself—because it was the only time I didn’t have to fawn.”

Yeah. She found a way to go be in the mountains, and it’s just her and scaling this giant rock, and it was the most connected to herself. She couldn’t fawn. Nobody else was there. And it was such a relief.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:42:24]:
Yeah. So, it’s a relational trauma response, and we’re—most of us—in relationship to varying degrees of all kinds all day, every day. So, it’s going to look different.

You know, at work, it looks different than at home, than your best friend, than… on and on. And I love how you're sharing those stories in your Substack. One of your most recent ones was a work story. And so, I love how that augments what’s happening in the book.

You and I could be talking for the next five hours. I already know. I can't wait to meet you in person one day. We're going to have so much fun.

Ingrid Clayton [00:42:44]:
It’s so strange that we haven’t—like, it wouldn’t have even occurred to me we haven’t. That’s unbelievable.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:42:52]:
Yes. I know it feels that way for me too. I’m going to end with a question. This is a new practice for me—so I am becoming an Akashic Records reader.

For those of you who don’t know what that is, that’s just gaining access to this higher consciousness that has access to all the different possibilities. And so, I’ve been asking, what is an additional question I need to ask my guests?

And so, when I was doing this work earlier today, they said: Ask about tears. What is the role of tears in this work?

And so, I’m offering that to you. And I know it’s coming from left field, but I know that you have an answer. And as we’ve been talking, something has also been coming to me, so I’m really curious to know what—you are thinking.

Ingrid Clayton [00:43:27]:
Well, this is just what's coming to mind right now, right? I obviously haven't thought about this at all, but I love the question. I love it because you are trusting your own process—that you're meant to bring this question—and then to me, I go, well, then I'm meant to answer it.
I feel excited by that. So, thank you for trusting your process in that way.

It happened in this conversation today where something really strikes me as true and important, and I get deeply emotional about it. It's happened in so many interviews, so many times, where I get struck with this emotion and the tears are the first thing that wants to come. It's happening again now.

I love that I feel so connected with myself and that in almost any context now I can access this level of emotion because I know that it means I'm so deeply connected with me and connected with you at the same time. And for relational trauma survivors, that is so scary. So scary.

And so to me, I think a lot of the time, the tears are signaling a depth of connection—with self, and in this case, with other—when I'm able to acknowledge it and not, like, swallow it down and think, "That’s not appropriate, this is a podcast, I need to keep going." It's sort of like—in a way, when I think about that—that would be like swallowing down and brushing away the magic. The possibility of genuine connection and feeling.

I think many other people would answer that same question in many other different ways. And I’m noticing that I’m going, “Oh, they would be smarter, that would be more interesting.” But this is the truth of my answer.
 And so rather than second-guessing it, I almost just want to, like, zip it and go: that’s what came. That’s what came in response to the question.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:45:29]:
What came was beautiful. It was also a reflection of what I was observing in you as we were having our conversation. And it was also a heart connection, because I was finding that’s true for me too.

It may not be true for everyone, but there are a lot of times when I can access those tears—I am also accessing some truth inside me.

Ingrid Clayton [00:45:52]:
The tears are a trust.
Yeah, because there's a depth of feeling there. And if part of fawning—in particular—is this disconnect from self, like, "I’m not allowed to feel, that’s not safe," and I’m curious what you are feeling…

So, to feel that depth, and then even share it—through tears or through articulating that I'm getting emotional—it’s very vulnerable. And honestly, I hope I never lose it. I hope I never get over—or that I’ve talked about all this enough. But I don’t think that will happen because it’s not about the content.

It’s about running the content through my experience in this moment and through your experience—what you want to share—that makes it so alive. It means I’m alive and that I’m sharing my humanity with you.
 I think that’s it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:46:38]:
What a gift that is. I'm so grateful for it. I love that that was the question too. I'm sort of really struck by it now that I think about it a little bit more. I'm grateful that that was the question.

And I love your answer. And I love that we have this trust between us—that we could both be emotional. And I did something different. There are a lot of times where I'm okay with tearing up, but sometimes I worry that—I'm not saying you—but someone else, that this person may not be comfortable with it.

And so, I've learned to say, “I'm going to cry for a moment,” or “You're going to see tears, and I’m okay.”

Ingrid Clayton [00:47:18]:
I love it.
“I can trust that my emotional experience is acceptable.” That’s right.

It reminds me—one of the stories that I share in the book—this client, Sadie, that I’ve worked with for over 10 years, she recently got engaged. And this was like, I mean, just the joy of all joys. And she was sharing with me, and she asked if I would go to her wedding.

And of course, I started to cry. And then, in my crying, I then said to her, “Well, are you sure you want me to go? Because you know that this is going to happen. I'm not going to be able to hold it together.”

And it was the most loving, wonderful reflection from her when she said, “Ingrid, I wouldn't have it any other way.” Like, of course she knew she was inviting me—that that was the me that was going to show up. That wasn’t a surprise to her when I'm like, “But then I'll cry.”
And she’s like, “Uh, yeah. Of course you're going to cry. You're you. And that’s the you I want there on my special days.”

And what a beautiful exchange of love.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:48:21]:
Oh yeah. So beautiful.

And I think we're going to let that be the beautiful note that we end on. But before we do—because everyone who's listening to this conversation—I hope that it has touched you in some way, as much as it has touched me.

And then, because you're touched, I want you to go out right now and get a copy of the book.
 And I love that cover. It's so beautiful. I think that’s an act of trust—when we get a cover design from someone—that one is as good as the cover that you chose for your memoir, Believing Me.

Ingrid Clayton [00:49:00]:
Thank you.
They hit it out of the park. This was all Putnam’s team—and it was their first try.

I saw it and my agent—like everybody—we just said, “That’s it. That’s the one.” Right?

I just love that it holds both this really active, bold, sort of like, “Yes, we’re showing up,” but we’re also fading away at the same time. I don’t know. The colors actually make me really happy.

And yes—it comes out September 9th, so I hope people will get it today, so it shows up on your doorstep or you pick it up at your local bookstore. But you know, as an author, pre-orders are everything.

So, whenever you're hearing this, I really appreciate your support of the book.
 And then also—just come find me in all the usual places: Instagram, Substack—it’s all just under my name, Ingrid Clayton—and we'll share the journey together.
 This unfawning revolution that, like you said—I love that.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:50:00]:
And I’m going to give people two tasks as part of the unfawning revolution.

And those two tasks are:
 Don’t just buy a copy of her book—review it on Amazon and Goodreads, because that is how other people find her book.

Also—especially with this book—make sure that you order it from your library, so that people who cannot afford copies have access to it.
 And if you have extra funds, maybe consider buying a copy to donate to a women’s shelter or someplace else where someone who really needs this book—who is in a situation that feels untenable—has access to this gift.

Ingrid Clayton [00:50:35]:
That is the wisest, most beautiful thing.
Thank you so much.

I want to just carry that in my pocket everywhere and share your words, because I love that.
 Thank you for inviting people into those opportunities. I think it means a lot.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:50:57]:
Well, I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Your work has truly touched me.
I'm a huge fan. I'm so excited about being part of the unfawning revolution.

Ingrid Clayton [00:50:57]:
Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. I adore you and your work. From the minute that we connected, I was like, She’s the real deal.

Anyone who has the pleasure of working with you—they are so, so lucky.
 And I’m lucky that I get to come back and have this second conversation. So, thank you for having me.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [00:51:15]:
You are so welcome.
And thank you for being here.
And I’m giving you a virtual hug right now.

Ingrid Clayton [00:51:30]:
Yes. I’m feeling it back at you, sister.