Transcript for Writing Your Resilience Podcast Episode Forty-Seven
Writing with Hunger: Mindset, Goals, and the Publishing Shift with Liz Morrow and Ariel Curry

When you hear the phrase hungry author, what does that mean to you? How might a hungry author approach their goals and what might they’re willing to do to achieve them? Join Sourcebook’s nonfiction editor Ariel Curry and ghostwriter Liz Morrow and me as we talk about the mindset writers need to succeed, how to stay hungry while working on your writing projects,, and the surprising new role self-publishing plays in the publishing industry on this week’s episode of the Writing Your Resilience podcast.

Lisa Ellison [0:00]: 

 Well, hello, Liz and Ariel. I am so excited to see you today. It's been a while, and I am so happy that we get to talk about your beautiful book. Hungry Authors, congratulations on your book launch, which happened in August. So, just to begin, tell us what you'd like us to know about your book.

Ariel [0:18]:
 Thank you so much for having us. Hungry Authors is the indispensable guide to planning, writing, and publishing a nonfiction book. And we did not come up with that subtitle, but I think it captures it pretty well. We truly believe that if you want to write a nonfiction book, you can—you absolutely can—if you have the right plan and the gumption to do it. It’s possible to get it out into the world in a way that aligns with your vision and effectively reaches readers.

We wanted to capture our process—the process we’ve used for a long time as professionals in the publishing industry. So, we put it into as simple and easy a process as we could come up with, and we put it into this book to hopefully guide others in making their dreams come true and bringing their vision to life in the form of a book.

Lisa Ellison [1:18]:
 I love that, Ariel. I think that’s such a great description, and it really does feel holistic. Even before diving into the practical tips, there’s the mindset you need to write and publish a book. I love that. And the practical pieces make it so accessible—they give you a sense of the vision.

Liz, I’m going to ask you now: Why Hungry Authors? It’s a lovely title; I love it. Why that title, and what does it mean to be a “hungry author”? Ariel, feel free to jump in too.

Liz [1:53]:
 Great question! We love this question. The term Hungry Authors existed before the book, the business, the podcast, or the cohort. It started as just an idea—a way Ariel and I talked about our ideal clients or the people we saw succeed.

When we met three-plus years ago, as friends and colleagues, we would talk about strategy, process, and our general worldview on publishing—what it takes and who succeeds. Obviously, it’s great if you’re good at your craft, have a good idea, and a platform. But what matters most is a mindset—this way of operating where you’re determined to succeed no matter what.

I know it sounds oversimplified, but Ariel and I could always identify the clients who would succeed. They weren’t always the ones with the biggest platform, the best ideas, or the most polished writing at the start. They were the ones who took direction, feedback, and pivoted when necessary.

At Corwin, where Ariel used to work, she and her old boss would say these writers were “hungry for it”—the Hungry Authors. That term stuck. And when we talk about determination, we don’t mean being pigheaded or bulldozing your way through. It’s about being flexible, resourceful, and willing to do what it takes—whether that’s building a platform, improving your craft, or taking advice from professionals.

Ariel [4:37]:
 Yes! One of the core pieces of the Hungry Authors mindset, which we discuss in chapter one, is this idea: I’m going there. You can come with me.

As an acquisition’s editor, I find that approach incredibly appealing. When authors come to me and say, “Here’s what I’m doing to make this book successful. Do you want to come along?”—that’s compelling. You can take that mindset regardless of how you publish.

Lisa Ellison [5:35]:
 I noticed that mindset was something you both embraced when creating this book. You said, “This idea is happening. Authors need it. We’re doing this, no matter what.” Whether it was through a traditional publisher, hybrid publishing, or self-publishing, the book was coming out. And now it’s traditionally published, but the point is, it would have happened either way.

Liz [6:13]:
 Exactly. That’s a great observation. For us, the book’s existence wasn’t up for debate. We were going to write it, market it, and sell it—how that happened was the only question.

Originally, we set out to hybrid publish because we wanted it out quickly. We envisioned a smaller project, especially since we didn’t have a big platform, business, or podcast back then. But one day, Ariel said, “We literally write book proposals for a living. Why aren’t we shooting our shot?” So, we did, and traditional publishing worked out. But even if it hadn’t, the book would have happened.

Lisa Ellison [7:20]:
 That’s one of the most motivating aspects of your book—thinking about that mindset. Why are you hungry? What are you hungry for? And what are you willing to do?

You both work in the industry—Liz as a ghostwriter and editor, Ariel as an acquisitions editor at Sourcebooks. You know how much the publishing world is changing. Recently, I was in a webinar where they said the average number of books a reader consumes annually is just three.

Liz [8:05]:

 Three at a time? Or three per year?

Lisa Ellison [8:08]:
 Three per year.

Liz [8:10]:
 Wow.

Lisa Ellison [8:11]
I know! Between that statistic and the shift toward memoir-plus, there are many obstacles. What do you tell authors who feel disheartened by these challenges?

Ariel [8:59]:
 It’s really hard, and I have these conversations with authors all the time. The publishing industry is overloaded with submissions. As an acquisition’s editor, I receive hundreds of proposals but can only publish 12–15 books a year. Multiply that by every editor, and you get an idea of the supply and demand issue.

At the same time, readers’ attention is divided—Netflix, TikTok, family, work. There’s intense competition, and traditional publishers need to feel very confident about selling large quantities of a book to take it on.

Lisa Ellison [10:51]:
 I have to interrupt—when you say, “large quantities,” what numbers are we talking about? I think that’s crucial for authors to hear.

Ariel [11:04]:
 Yeah. I mean, on the very low end, I would say a publisher wants to sell—and this is also going to vary by publisher, right? Smaller publishers are going to have a tolerance for smaller print runs and sales, whereas bigger publishers need much bigger numbers. A bigger publisher might say, if we can’t sell at least 100,000 copies, we’re not even considering it. Other publishers might say, if we can’t sell at least 5,000 copies, we’re not considering it.

Different publishers exist across a range, but I’d say the average book sells maybe 2,000 copies or less, which is not a lot. Most publishers want to be able to estimate safely at least 10,000 copies. So, that gives you a sense of whether you can count on that many people wanting your book and whether you can reach them. That’s the hard part.

To answer your previous question, there’s a lot of opportunity to self-publish right now. It’s the best time to self-publish because authors have so many options and can create amazing, high-quality books. I’ve seen some gorgeous self-published books. If you’re on BookTok—holy cow—there are people self-publishing some beautiful books. Quality is no longer an issue in self-publishing.

What’s becoming more common is that self-publishing has become a playground to test a book’s efficacy and see if it gets picked up by a traditional publisher. As an acquisition’s editor, I’m constantly looking at TikTok, BookTok, and Amazon bestseller rankings to see which self-published books are taking off and might be worth picking up. That’s now a completely valid pathway to traditional publishing.

Liz [13:15]:
And nothing proves a hungry author’s mindset better than someone who literally just went and did it themselves.

Arie [13:21]: 
Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Ellison [13:23]:
 Ingrid Clayton, who was on the podcast, self-published her memoir. At the time we met, it had sold over 11,000 copies, which is huge for a self-published book. Recently, she announced a book on fawning, which I’m very excited about. They’ve sold international rights, and the reason the publisher was interested was her memoir’s success.

What you’re saying, Ariel, feels very different from ten years ago. I remember being in a session at the 2016 Creative Nonfiction Conference, and agents and acquisitions editors were saying, if you self-publish, you’ve excluded that book from consideration. You’re presenting something different.

Liz [14:32]:
Honestly, yeah. I have permission to share this story. I primarily work as a collaborator and ghostwriter. The biggest contract of my career came from a couple, the Castons, who run Marriage365. They self-published a book called 365 Connecting Questions, which sold over 100,000 copies.

They weren’t even looking for a book deal—they were running their business and selling their book on Amazon. Then, their agent, Lisa Tener, noticed them and said, do you know what you’re sitting on? You could get a mega deal. They did—a three-book deal with an imprint of Penguin Random House. I’m writing those books with them.

That self-published book was a springboard, not a mark against them. A lot of authors even choose to self-publish despite having traditional offers. For example, the Castons asked, this book is selling well, and we’re getting all the royalties, so why should we sell it to you?

There are many reasons to consider traditional publishing, but it’s a long game. You need to hold your goals loosely and recognize that there are many ways to reach them. Self-publishing and hybrid publishing are great options that can lead to other opportunities.

Lisa Ellison [17:30]:
Yes. What I’m hearing you say is that it’s important to think beyond the book to your career as an author. How does this book serve as a stepping stone?

I have a couple of follow-up questions. First, regarding the Castons’ multi-book deal—was it for more nonfiction books or other genres? I ask because memoir authors often believe their memoir will lead to writing novels or other types of books.

Liz [18:49]: 
The first book in the deal is a revamped version of the self-published book, which is common. Traditional publishers often pick up a successful self-published book and couple it with additional books.

In the Castons’ case, the subsequent books are in the same genre: relationships and marriage. They also run a successful business, so the books feed into a larger ecosystem of clients, speaking engagements, and a unified message.

For fiction, it’s similar: if you self-publish a contemporary romance, the publisher will likely want another in the same genre. It’s rare to see a contract combine self-published nonfiction with a deal for a novel. That’s typically a separate track in an author’s career.

Ariel [20:32]:
 I agree. What I’ve seen more often is a fiction author succeeding in fiction and then deciding to write nonfiction. I can’t think of many examples of someone starting in nonfiction and then writing fiction successfully.

Liz [21:07]: 
Elizabeth Gilbert comes to mind. She started in memoir and journalism before moving to fiction, but she’s an outlier—mega, mega successful.

Lisa Ellison [21:16]:
 I can think of two examples, which I'll share, but I think your point is very valid.

Liz [21:23]:
 Still true. Yeah, that’s a more common path.
 
 

Lisa Ellison [21:31]
Yeah. The two examples I have aren’t necessarily going to be translatable to everyone, right? These are probably exceptions to the rule. One would be Courtney Maum. Leigh Stein would be another. I recently read on her Substack that she published her memoir a while ago and is now doing well with her novels. The third person I think of is Jeannette Walls.

These are people with huge platforms. It’s like being in the NBA. If you get a book published, you’re in the NBA, right? But you might be in the minor leagues of the NBA. The names I mentioned are like the top stars you might get a jersey for—a very small group of people.

Ariel [22:28]:
 I agree with that. It’s hard to change genres. It’s even hard to change topics.

Ryan Holiday is an example. He talks about writing two moderately successful marketing books and wanting to write a book on stoicism. His publisher said, “Oh, yeah, do you have to?” He replied, “Yeah, I have to.” They said, “All right, we’ll give you a small advance. Get it out of your system.” They really wanted him to keep writing marketing books because publishers are conservative. If one thing works, they want to keep repeating that success.

That’s not always going to work, though. You never know when a different, innovative idea might succeed. It’s just riskier. Finding a publisher willing to take that risk is hard.

If you want to change genres, you might consider self-publishing first to prove it can work. Then you can present that data to a publisher and say, “Look, I did it. You should take the risk on me.”

Lisa Ellison [23:59]:
 I love this conversation and all the juicy tidbits you’re sharing about self-publishing, hybrid publishing, and traditional publishing. Your book has a great section on these topics, with checklists for pros and cons. People should pick it up to explore these in depth.

Since you’re here, I’d like to ask some questions. I’ll start with Liz. Many people see self-publishing as second-rate or settling, which isn’t true, as this conversation shows. Others get antsy—they’re not ready yet but pull the trigger anyway. When it comes to self-publishing, what does it mean to do it right?

Liz [25:03]:
 Good question. You can technically do it all on your own today, but to do it well, you’ll need help. At the very least, hire a proofreader or an editor.

Ariel and I advocate for involving someone earlier, like a developmental or substantive editor, to help with content and structure. There’s a cost associated, but it’s worth it.

There are various self-publishing methods. Amazon has its platform, and there are many software options. Hybrids are another route, though more expensive. Hybrids often provide in-house editors, distribution channels, and other services, depending on your contract.

In general, self-publishing can be done affordably, but you still need professional help. We’d never advise someone to write something and publish it without editing, no matter how much time they’ve spent.

I mostly work with people who have traditional book deals, but when someone approaches me about self-publishing, I insist on an editor being involved. It’s essential to the process.

What do you think, Ariel?

Lisa Ellison [27:49]:
 Before you answer, Ariel, let me add something. Too many people rely on a friend who’s a high school English teacher to edit. It’s not that they aren’t intelligent or capable, but editing a book requires understanding story structure and other metrics.

Ariel [28:27]:
 I couldn’t agree more. When someone says, “Oh, my sister’s friend read it; she’s good at English,” I cringe.

Highly qualified editors understand story structure, the publishing industry, and marketability. A book is a product. Think of it like building a professional website. Your sister’s friend might do okay with WordPress, but a professional developer ensures functionality, security, and user experience.

Similarly, an editor ensures the reader’s journey is cohesive and transformational. Whether you’re writing prescriptive nonfiction, memoir, or fiction, the editor’s expertise shapes the reader’s experience.

Lisa Ellison [31:03]:
 That’s so important. Work with someone qualified and experienced—someone with a proven track record.

Think of your book as a mini business. Treating it that way shifts your mindset from, “This is my fun project with friends,” to something more professional. Jane Friedman talks about ROI—return on investment—which publishers also consider.

Platform is part of ROI, though not always in the ways people think. Since your book covers platform, and I know you’ve used one for Hungry Authors, I’d love to discuss that. I noticed you have a book deal but a minimal online presence. Can we dive into that?

Ariel [32:31]:
 Thank you. I appreciate that, and we recognize that ourselves, which is part of why we anticipated we’d probably self-publish or hybrid-publish this. To be totally honest, as an acquisitions editor, I probably wouldn’t have signed myself to a book deal—just to be completely honest—so I knew that going into it.

I think what we had going for us is that we have a really strong network. One of the things we emphasize in the book, on our podcast, and in the classes we teach is that authors need to think about platform more broadly than just social media or online presence. Speaking engagements are huge. Liz and I have a long track record of teaching classes, speaking at conferences, and engaging with writing groups. We are not everywhere all over the internet. Part of that is because we have lives, and it takes a lot of energy to put yourself out there online. Instead, we focus our energy on other ways to connect. We do podcasts, we cultivate relationships, and we remind people that platform is so much more than just your social media presence.

I’ve even seen a very prominent book coach say, “I won’t work with you unless you have at least 100,000 followers.” That made me so angry because it perpetuates the myth that you need a huge following to get a book deal. Liz and I know that’s not true. In fact, I love looking at the New York Times bestseller list to see how many followers the authors have. Often, there’s someone with only a couple of bylines in a couple of places. What matters is they wrote an incredible book, had an incredible idea, and leveraged whatever audience they had to get their message out.

We see this again and again, and it’s part of the message of Hungry Authors. Platform depends on so many factors—it’s bigger than social media. It also depends on the publisher. Big Five publishers might require bigger platforms, especially for prescriptive nonfiction, but independent publishers might embrace new voices and give authors a chance to get their name out there. It’s about finding the right editor and publisher willing to take a risk, no matter the size of your platform.

Genre matters, too. For prescriptive nonfiction, readers expect expertise and credibility, which are part of your platform. However, if you’re writing fiction or memoir, expertise isn’t necessary to write a great story. You can have little to no platform and still succeed with a narrative-driven book.

The mission of Hungry Authors is to break down platform into actionable parts so authors can leverage their strengths. If social media isn’t your strength—like it’s not ours—find another angle. Maybe your network is amazing, or you know how to land articles in the New York Times, or you excel at securing speaking engagements. Leverage that instead.

Lisa Ellison [36:52]
That makes so much sense. When I’m working with someone on a book proposal, I often see them stress about platform. But I’ve been surprised by how many people with little to no social media presence have other connections.

I ask, “What listservs are you part of? What groups do you belong to? How are you involved with people in ways that might not be visible online?” For instance, I’m working with an author who is active on a massive listserv. No one outside that group would know, but they have significant professional connections.

If you were to think about platform without involving social media, what’s the one thing you’d recommend someone focus on?

Ariel [38:01]:
 I’d suggest asking yourself: How do I enjoy connecting with people? Then use whatever medium aligns with that and amplify it.

For example, I love connecting through my newsletter. Social media is just “there”—alive, but that’s all I can say for it. I post occasionally, but I pour my energy into my newsletter. That’s where I see growth and engagement.

I also love speaking to people. Liz and I pitch ourselves to writing groups, podcasts, and conferences because those are our strengths. They’re life-giving, and we see real engagement there.

To be honest, getting 100 likes on a social media post doesn’t mean much to me. But receiving 20 thoughtful, engaged replies to my newsletter feels impactful. Knowing this, I focus on those areas. I’d encourage others to find what works for them and invest in that.

Lisa Ellison [39:45]:
 I love that! It’s so important to think about what you enjoy and where you can show up authentically. Social media might be all about likes and followers, but for me, I have to be mindful of how it affects my brain. There’s a lot of research on how it impacts our dopamine and overall well-being.

By the way, I loved your recent Substack post about how birthing a book is not the same as birthing a baby. It was beautifully written. I’ll make sure it’s in the show notes.

Ariel [40:41]:
 Thank you! That’s a great example of authentic engagement. I wrote that piece months ago and finally decided to share it. The response was incredible—so many thoughtful comments.

When we allow ourselves to be authentic and share something meaningful, people respond. That’s also a key lesson about platform: people want authenticity. Your book can also be an authentic way to engage with readers.

Lisa Ellison [41:32]:
 Absolutely. Make sure your book isn’t just beautiful but that it has heart.

Ariel [41:38]:
 Yes, exactly.

Lisa Ellison [41:39]
We could talk about this forever, but let’s wrap up with three lightning-round questions. What’s the best piece of writing advice you received while working on your book?

Ariel [41:59]:
 Okay, the best piece of writing advice I've ever gotten truly changed my life and set me on the path to Hungry Authors with Liz, which is to view the book as a journey for the reader. That’s not something I created—that is something I was told by a mentor many years ago when I was a baby acquisitions editor. It completely changed the way I view books, the way I was planning, and the way I did development. It helped me see things from a broader perspective.

Now, it’s something we teach other authors, you know? So that was definitely the best advice I’ve ever gotten.

I think the best advice we got in the writing process for Hungry Authors was hard advice for me, and I’m just speaking for myself here. It was that I was saying too much, going into too much detail, and I needed to cut it back. For example, on some chapters—like the genre chapter—I love genre, and I went down this really deep rabbit hole. I thought, “If we’re going to write the next Story Grid for nonfiction, we need to go into so much depth about every single genre in nonfiction.”

Lovingly, Liz was like, “We need to scale this back because most people do not want to write that kind of book.” It was good advice to remain really focused on the reader and to think about their needs—creating, again, that comprehensive, cohesive journey. In Hungry Authors, I was kind of taking readers on a little bit of a detour.

Lisa Ellison [43:36]:
 Yeah, and I think you nailed it, because this definitely feels like a journey—from motivation to idea, to “What do I do with it?” to “How do I organize it?” and finally, “How do I get it out into the world?” You nailed that.

And, you know, life has been happening all around us. One of the things you talk about in that beautiful Substack is infertility. We all have our health journeys. There have been hurricanes recently. People have kids. All kinds of stuff is happening around us. You’ve got a book out in the world, and you’re in your launch year. How are you nurturing yourself and your resilience as you navigate all these things?

Ariel [44:20]:
 My goodness, yeah. It’s a good question because that’s not necessarily a strength of mine. It’s definitely a challenge, and I’m having to really embrace the present moment. I’m trying to be really present in whatever I’m doing.

We’re foster parents, so when our kids are home, I try to be really present with them because they need lots of attention. They’re going through trauma in their lives, and we have to be present for them. Then, when I’m at work, I just try to be present at work and focus on that.

In the midst of all the craziness of life, I’ve had to level up my presence skills—focusing and being intentional. For example, in this conversation, I’m not trying to multitask. I’m being intentional about being here. I find that helps me not feel stressed about whatever’s next.

When it comes time to do my creative work, I approach it the same way. For example, if I’m reading, I’m just reading. I’m not thinking about emails or breakfast that needs to be made. I’m just reading because it’s my reading time.

I don’t know if that’s the best answer, but it’s the best I’m doing right now.

Lisa Ellison [45:55]:
 No, I think that’s a beautiful answer. How do you keep the blinders on? I mean, I’m wondering if it’s easier because you’re not on social media much. How are you staying focused and setting boundaries to stay in the present moment?

Ariel [46:09]:
 I put my phone on “Do Not Disturb” a lot. I’ll wake up early and tell my husband, “Hey, I’m reading now, so don’t talk to me about the schedule for later, please, because I’m reading for the next 30 minutes.” Or I’ll say, “I’m journaling for the next 30 minutes.”

I’ve gotten better at telling people, “This is what I’m doing. This is where I’m at.” When it’s time to make dinner, I’ll make dinner. When it’s time to be in a meeting, I’ll be in the meeting. That’s how I’m trying to set boundaries and blinders for myself.

Lisa Ellison [46:50]:
 Yeah. So, giving yourself permission, telling others, “This is my boundary,” and then reminding yourself of it as you go. I love it.

Ariel [47:17]:
 Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Ellison [47:17]:
 Well, if people want to get a copy of Hungry Authors or connect with you—not necessarily on social media—what are the best ways for them to do that?
 
 

Ariel [47:17]:
 You can visit HungryAuthors.com to buy the book and find it in all the places where it’s available for sale. Of course, we’d love it if you left a review on one of those platforms!

You can also connect with us by listening to our podcast. We often share little bits about our lives and, of course, tips and interviews with great guests.

For me personally, the best way to connect is my newsletter at ArielCurry.Substack.com.

Lisa Ellison [47:49]:
 Nice! All of that will be in the show notes, so people can just click the links and find everything.

Ariel [47:55]:
 Thank you so much, Lisa.

Lisa Ellison [47:58]
You’re very welcome. Thank you for being on the show, and on behalf of all the hungry authors out there, thank you for helping us stay hungry for writing.

Ariel [48:08]:
 Thank you! We’re such fans of your podcast, Lisa. It’s been awesome to have you on Hungry Authors, and now it’s exciting to be on yours as well.

Lisa Ellison [48:20]:
 You’re very welcome. I’ll put a link to that episode in the show notes, too. We’ll have long show notes!

Ariel [48:26]:
 Love it. Lots of resources for people to dig into.