Writing Your Resilience Podcast Episode 47
From Forgiveness to Friendship and Why It's Never Too Late with Gayle and Mildred Kirschenbaum

Is there an age when it’s too late to publish a book, forgive a person, or take a chance on yourself? Not if you’re Mildred Kirschenbaum. With the help of her daughter Gayle, Mildred is a 101-year-old Instagram sensation and debut author currently on a book tour. Join us as we discuss the challenges of mother/daughter relationships, how forgiveness turned Gayle and Mildred into best friends, and the secrets to lifelong learning and living vibrantly no matter your age on this week’s episode of the Writing Your Resilience podcast. Let’s dive in! 

Lisa Ellison [0:00]:
 Well, hello, Gayle and Mildred, welcome to the Writing Your Resilience podcast. I am so excited to have you on today.

Mildred [0:06]:
 Thank you. 

Gayle [0:07]:
 Thank you. We're both excited.

Lisa Ellison [0:09]:
 Well, I'm thrilled for you because, Gayle, we met—I think it was 2019—you were working on a memoir, and then all kinds of things have happened: the pandemic, you switched your Instagram, and now Mildred, you are an influencer. All of this has led to this book, Mildred Mindset, a coffee table book that you two have self-published. We're going to talk about that process in a few minutes. But so much has happened, and your lives have just cracked open. What would you like us to know about the two of you and your book?

Mildred [0:46]:
 Nothing much. I'm 101 and I live my life to the fullest. I realize you walk through this once, you don't get a second chance. I have a good attitude. I treat people the way I would want to be treated. If I'm in a restaurant and the waitress does something wrong, she's not working as a waitress because she loves to be a waitress. She's working there because she needs the money.

Lisa Ellison [1:21]:
 Yeah.

Mildred [1:21]:
 So have a good attitude. Be sympathetic. Understand that she needs the money. She's not doing a job she loves. The big thing is, I try to treat people the way I want to be treated.

Lisa Ellison [1:37]:
 I love that about you. Mildred. And Gayle, what would you like us to know about you?

Gayle [1:43]:
 Well, I'm a creative. I came out of the womb super sensitive, super intuitive. And as a creative, I will say—I don't know if people believe this or not—but I think I came into this world as an old soul in a family of new souls. So even though I was the youngest of three children, and obviously the youngest in the family, I feel like I came into this world with knowledge I didn't see in my family. It helped me through many things I experienced in my childhood and in life.

Should I mention anything about the journey here?

Lisa Ellison [2:13]:
 Yeah, go right ahead.

Gayle [2:14]:
 Okay, so we didn't get off to a good start. I would say probably at birth. She might disagree, because she told everybody she was giving birth to Gary.

Mildred [2:28]:
 I had two boys, and I took a saliva test, and the saliva test said I was going to have another boy. It's 50% correct. Look how silly I was when I was young. So, I prepared a name for a boy. Gayle took it the wrong way—that I wanted a boy, not a girl. Plain silly. When you have two boys, you want a girl. When you have two girls—

Gayle [2:54]:
 Not always, but we won't go there.

Mildred [2:58]:
 Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. But she read it the wrong way. So, I will stand up for that. Yes, I was a little difficult with her because Gayle had selective hearing from this height. When I called, if she chose to hear me, she answered. If not, she didn't, and that was Gayle. She always danced to her own tune.

Gayle [3:28]:
 Can I go now?

Mildred [3:29]:
 Go ahead. Just remember, I'm wearing my boxing gloves.

Gayle [3:35]:
 I might not be good at math—she does announce that—but I do know what 50% means. So, you embraced the boy part, not the girl part. And there are certain personality traits—women on the narcissistic level—who don't do well with same-sex children because there's a competition. And as you know, the mother-daughter relationship is the most highly charged one. If you go on Amazon and search "mother-daughter" or "family relationships," the mother-daughter relationship and the category of "daughters and narcissistic mothers" have the most books.

So, when I hit middle age, I was living in Los Angeles, making TV, and I was lucky. I won an Emmy for my first film. I say your skills are transferable because I never went to film school. Suddenly, I'm all over the media, the Today Show in New York, whatever. Then I'd go home to visit, and there would be the criticisms and bullying, not just from my mom but my brothers too. One brother became a doctor, the other a lawyer. Abuse can happen in any society, at any economic level.

I dreaded going home to visit, and when the criticisms started, I would either cringe or give it right back, but it was exhausting. I was middle-aged when I realized I couldn't keep going like this. I had to figure out how to forgive her. But before I did that, I said, "Mom, you always wanted me to go to a plastic surgeon's office, so I'll agree to go to three consultations as long as I can have a camera crew along." And she didn't care; she was thrilled. So, I had a crew with me, and what resulted was a very funny short movie called My Nose. And that changed everything.

Lisa Ellison [7:19]: 

To me, one of the things that is so remarkable about your story is that, Gayle, you went on this forgiveness journey. You wrote a beautiful movie, and you went through this whole process in the movie about how to forgive. And the two of you don’t always see eye to eye—we see that even now. Some people would think reconciliation would be impossible. You can't have a good relationship when things are like this. And yet, you two have this beautiful relationship, and that breaks the mold around what's possible. So, what do you think is the most important thing that allowed the two of you to be the best friends that you are, even when you don't always agree?

Mildred [8:13]: 

Don't sweat the small stuff. Gayle and I reached a point in our relationship—she'll jump right in and down my throat if I'm wrong—I would rather go on vacation with Gayle than anyone else. I would rather go to happy hour with Gayle than anyone else. We live our own lives when we go. If we're at happy hour and you're sitting on my left and I'm talking to you, she won’t get offended. Either she'll join in or talk to the person on her right. We do exactly what we want and enjoy each other's company.

Gayle [9:15]: 

Not all the time.

Mildred [9:19]: 

Many times, I hang up on her mid-sentence.

Gayle [9:21]: 

Now, that’s a new thing. She hangs up mid-sentence. So, to answer your question—for me, it was the movie I made after My Nose. I said to her, “Will you work on our relationship in front of the camera?” That ended up being the featured doc called Look at Us Now, Mother. The turning point, the key for me on my journey to finding forgiveness, was reframing how I looked at my mother.

I went from looking at her as “mother” because what gets us so upset in life is unfulfilled expectations. With every title, every role a person has in your life—friend, spouse, mother, son—there’s a list of expectations for what they’re supposed to be like, right? So, for “mother,” it’s: You should love, nurture, support me; you should be there for me. And she was the opposite with my brothers and me. It was bad.

When I changed how I looked at my mother and saw her as a wounded child, it flipped. But how did I get there? How was I able to look at her as a wounded child? I had to dig into her past. I did my research, found the tragedies and hardships of her childhood. That flipped the switch for me, so when her criticisms continued, I saw her as a wounded child. They bounced off me.

I say to people when I speak or teach, “If your little kid looked up and said, ‘Mommy or Daddy, I don’t love you anymore,’ what would you do? You wouldn’t smack them; that means they want love. You’d lift them up and give them love.” So, when your mother says, “You’re fat, you’re stupid, you won’t amount to anything,” that person needs love because hurt people hurt people. When we feel love, we give it to others. We only have control over ourselves—over our own thoughts, right? We can’t control anyone else. But by changing how we react, so when those criticisms come, instead of cringing or firing back, you let it bounce off because you see them as a little wounded child. Eventually, they stop sending those criticisms because they’re not getting the impact they wanted.

That was the beginning of transforming our relationship and where we are today. A big turning point was when my father died in 2006. She hadn’t worked on that relationship yet, and I was with her in Florida. She’d never been alone; she went from her parents to marrying my father as a teenager. She opened a travel agency because of the benefits; this was pre-internet. I got an invite to the Avian Film Festival, and she said, “I’m coming with you.” I thought, “How do I say no?” She was alone, and the whole family thought we’d come home not speaking to each other. But it was a turning point.

She came into my life. We fought all the time, and she wasn’t used to B&Bs; she’d only stayed at American hotels. I found this great B&B, a converted paper mill with no air conditioning, so I had to stop in every town looking for air conditioning for her. Here we are. People who knew me then, who witnessed my childhood, can’t believe where we are today.

Lisa Ellison [13:18]
Yeah, and what I hear in this, Gayle, is that you reframed the experience and the relationship, and you also found a way to tap into your own sense of self and power, which helped you see things differently.

I have a question for you, Mildred, and this isn’t on the list, so you might be surprised. My grandma and I were very connected. She helped raise me. She had a lot of limitations and issues with depression and even attempted suicide when she was younger. When I was reading about your father’s suicide attempt, I connected with that because it was part of my family experience.

One thing about my grandparents—they wouldn’t say “I love you.” Part of that was generational. My grandma grew up during the Depression, and “I love you” meant something else then. But when she turned 90, it was like she had an awakening. About a month after her birthday, she said, “Lisa, I love you.” I wanted to tear up—it was a big moment.

So, I’m curious, Mildred: How has turning 100, and now 101 changed the way you see the world and feel about people?

Mildred [15:04]:
 I guess I have more patience with people. I have a book presentation, and there’s a neighbor who was dismissive about it, but I know she cares. She’ll check in, ask how I’m doing, offer to get something. I take it in segments.

Gayle [15:32]:
 Something important I want to share—she never acknowledged hurting me or doing anything wrong, but at 99, she was kicking into social media. I’m the one pulling it all together. I said, “Mom, we’re Jewish; we need a video for Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.” She stalled, and I suggested, “Why don’t you do a video about us, our story?” So, tell them what you did.

Mildred [16:08]:
 I did a video asking Gayle to forgive me for all my transgressions against her.

Gayle [16:25]:
 Yes, and in the video, first, she said she’d been very harsh with me, and she asked for forgiveness. She also said, “I know in my heart she forgave me.” I teach forgiveness; I’d forgiven her years before. Then she added, “Now I have to forgive myself.”

Lisa Ellison [16:44]:
 I remember watching that. For listeners who don’t know the full story, Mildred is on Gayle’s Instagram, and I think we’ll link to that specific video because it was so powerful. That’s what made me think of my grandmother and her change of perspective as she aged. In your book, you share wisdom you’ve gathered as you turned not just 100 but now 101. And you have a book launch—Mildred, you’re everywhere!

Mildred [17:30]:
 I’m never lost for words. I always told Gayle, I was a public speaker for cerebral palsy and things like that, and at my synagogue. I said, “All I need is an opening line, and from there, I don’t need notes.” Life is like that—an opening line. Live it to the fullest. Yesterday is gone, today is here, and you don’t know what tomorrow brings. Enjoy every day. There was a 65-year-old woman we came across at our…

Gayle [18:04]:
 Our first book launch, on March 8, International Women’s Day, in New York. It was in a literary salon in a beautiful Brooklyn brownstone, a private event with cocktails and live classical music. On the way there, it was pouring rain, and Mom said, “Nobody’s going to show up.”

Mildred [18:29]:
 It was pouring! I thought, “You’d have to be crazy to show up.” But we walked into a full house.

Gayle [18:38]:
 Right, and then we were doing the Q&A, and a 65-year-old woman said…

Mildred [18:49]:
 She’d been traveling, but she’d decided she was done and wasn’t going to do anything more. So, I gave her what-for, and next thing, she was booking a trip.

Gayle [19:00]:
 She says, "She inspires a lot of people.” 

Lisa Ellison [19:06]:
 And I feel inspired by you, and I'm so glad that you talked to that woman. I'm thinking about how old you are, and this is like a math question or a math problem. You know, if you were 65 and you made that decision, you would have lived 36 more years. That is a long time to do nothing! And you're doing all kinds of things, including this book. I remember, Gayle, when you and I talked on the phone, you said, "This book is coming out; time is of the essence. My mom's turning 100." And you thought, "I've got to get it out there, right?" And so many authors think there's just one way, or that if you self-publish, you can't be successful. People say you'll face limitations. But the way you did this! As you just said, you had a full house for your book launch in New York City. I saw the videos; it was amazing. You've been on all these news programs, and I'll link to the most recent one you sent me in the show notes. People wanted this book because of your Instagram. How many followers do you have at this point?

Gayle [20:23]:
 I think 115,000.

Lisa Ellison [20:25]:
 Yeah, 115,000 followers. So how did you have the courage to say, "You know what, we’re self-publishing, and not only are we going to self-publish just to get the book out there, we’re going to be successful?”

Gayle [20:43]:
 Okay, so that I attribute again—Oddly enough, I had a publisher for my memoir that was supposed to come out this Mother’s Day, and what happened was the fans on Instagram... So just to give background, I launched my Instagram originally for my fine art photography, which I was starting to do between movies. It was growing slowly, because if you remember when Instagram started, it was a visual platform. Then TikTok came along, and Instagram realized they had to include video too.

Long story short, it was growing at a slow pace, and then we were on this cruise when my mom turned 99. We had just lost my elder brother, so my mom, my surviving brother, and I went away to be together. I handed her my phone while we were having breakfast and asked, "So, Mom, what is it like to turn 99?" She said something like, "I can’t believe I have all my marbles." I posted that video, and it went viral. That’s when I realized my mother has something everyone else wants. So, I decided to dedicate the feed to her, us, and our moments, and it took off.

The fans were calling for this book because they loved her tips, right? She would tell me things, and I'd tell her, "Mom, you have to make that a video." I live in New York, she lives in Florida, but when I’m not with her, the show must go on. She’s very tech-savvy for her age—she has an iPhone, iPad, and a Dell computer. I taught her how to use the phone, how to focus, and how to video herself, then she’d send it to me, and I’d edit and post it.

The videos were getting tons of views, some even in the millions. 

One on attitude got picked up by Maria Shriver, which then led to appearances on shows like Jen and Hoda. Everyone kept saying, "Mildred needs a book!" So, I polled people on Instagram: self-publish or traditional? The consensus was to self-publish and do it quickly. Some fans even offered financial support. I didn’t do a GoFundMe; I’d used Kickstarter for my films, but that was too complicated. GoFundMe ended up working perfectly, and the funds came in quickly.

The book came together fast. I sat down with my mother to capture about 20 of her tips, used her exact words, and wrote an intro about her life. She’s funny—a real queen of one-liners. Once, at the screening of a movie we did together, someone asked her, "What’s your next movie?" She replied, "Porn." A journalist dubbed her "the geriatric shock jock." I included those gems and more of her tips, along with archival photos. Each spread was a decade of her life with her personal, humorous notes.

I found a designer who’d self-published before, and he helped me with the layout. I put up a website for it, too. My previous experience with websites and engagement really helped—I knew to prepare marketing materials, which was key.

I knew my mother was great content; I saw people loved her. We launched in hard, soft, and Kindle formats and even included an Audible version with a PDF of the gallery. Self-publishing felt freeing after my experience with a literary agent. I wasn’t sitting around waiting for updates that never came. I had control, and that was amazing. When you have control, you can make things happen!

Lisa Ellison [27:51]:
 Yes! I just want to point out some things for listeners because you have a wealth of experience, and that’s why this has been so successful. Mildred, you are the amazing personality, but, Gayle, you are the one with all this experience in PR and knowing what to do. Here are some things you’ve done or that I know you must do:  have your marketing materials ready. Know your story, who your readers are, and how you’ll reach them. Number two: build your audience. For this book, your audience was on Instagram, but you’ve also done newsletters, videos, and engagement in other ways. Understand the pros of self-publishing, like having full control, and know the cons, like the potential difficulty with Amazon or limited library distribution, if you’re not on the IngramSpark list. 

Gayle [28:57]:
 Actually, our distributor is IngramSpark.

Lisa Ellison [29:01]
Okay, your distributor is Ingram...

Gayle [29:03]:
Spark. So, IngramSpark puts out a blast to all these places, like Barnes & Noble online and, I think, Target. We don’t have control over the prices they’re setting on Amazon, right? But what I want to say, which is important, is to build a mailing list. Yes, I do videos on Instagram, like Mildred Mindset is going to come up," and then I say, "Do you want to get the news? Click this link and sign up." But here’s the thing: what if my Instagram goes down or they block me? You want to get as many people as you can onto your own newsletter or mailing list, because, yes, while Instagram is a good launching pad, a good vehicle for building a following, it’s essential to own your contacts.

Try to find ways to offer things that encourage people to sign up, so you keep control of that connection. One other thing—I didn’t think to do this in New York. We did three events there, and I don’t know why I didn’t do it, especially at this trendy bookstore in Soho. It’s a very old-fashioned bookstore that opened this year. But at all my movie screenings (and I haven’t made a movie in years), I had a clipboard for people to sign up if they wanted to join my mailing list. We did a library event with just a few people, and I brought my clipboard, and about 80% signed up! I know other people do things like asking the audience to use their iPhones, but my audience tends to be older. I even brought my Square reader to take credit card orders, but they’re more cash people.

Lisa Ellison [30:52]:
That’s another reason why it’s important to know your audience. If you understand their age, tech-savviness, or tech challenges, you can meet them where they are. And yes, I totally agree: your newsletter is essential. Your email list is truly the information you own, because any social media site can go down. Out of curiosity, is your newsletter on Substack, or are you using a different platform? That’s something everyone’s always talking about.

Gayle [31:24]: 
I’m on both now. When I started self-publishing some stories, I thought, “Substack is the venue for writing.” But my newsletter is on my website because I do so many things. I’ve got my coaching, so when you go to my site and hit subscribe, you can pick which newsletters you want. If I’m marketing my mother’s book, the link goes straight to her updates. If I’m doing a forgiveness course, subscribers get a free download with my steps to forgiveness. It’s curated, depending on what they choose.

Lisa Ellison [32:04]:
We could be here all day talking about this; there’s just so much to cover. You both have so much information! Mildred, if someone’s thinking, “I really want to be an author; I want to write a book,” but feels like it’s too late—what advice would you give them? Many people I work with are in their 60s, 70s, and even 80s or 90s, and they worry that time is passing them by. They wonder if they can still do it. What would you say?

Mildred [32:38]: 

It’s never too late. And when you write your book, make sure you’re writing facts, because you’ll get caught if you don’t.

Gayle [32:46]:
She would be a great fiction writer.

Lisa Ellison [32:50]:
Yes, if you’re writing nonfiction, do not make things up! And no, it is never too late, and you are absolutely proof of that. You both have a book tour coming up in Florida, and you had one in New York City. If anyone wants to see videos of Mildred on the go with Gayle, they can check out the Instagram page. How are you taking care of yourselves and bolstering your resilience as you handle this book launch and tour? That takes a lot of energy.

Mildred [33:25]:
Listen to your body. No one knows your body better than you do. If you're tired, wind down for five or 10 minutes. You know, I told this to someone who interviewed me, and I don't remember who it was. And she said, "You know what? When we finish this interview, I'm going to close the door and close my eyes for five minutes." Listen to your body, yes, and that will give you everything you need. That's all I have to say. I love that. Yeah.

Lisa Ellison [33:59]: 
What about you, Gayle?

Gayle [34:01]:
 For me, my routine is I like to journal in the morning, and then I do some of my exercises here, and then I get up insanely early, between 4:00 and 5:30. Oh, I know, yeah, yeah. And then I head over... when I'm down here, I head over to the gym, and I'm done in a really short period of time, and then I eat healthy. So, I'm completely gluten-free.

Mildred [34:26]: 
I eat healthy, and yeah, I don't eat too much junk food, yeah.

Gayle [34:30]:
So I take care of my body and hopefully my mind. 

Mildred [34:34]: 
The other thing is, I'd like to know, who goes to a doctor and doesn't come out with an RX? My cholesterol was a little high, and he was giving me a statin drug. I said, "Don't—what's my alternative?" Right? And I brought it down. Then he calls me, and he says, "My potassium is all off." I took his advice, I drank water, and I don't take this heartburn pill anymore.

Gayle [35:07]:
 That could be the side effect of another med, a heartburn pill...

Mildred [35:11]: 
Right, not a prescription. And he calls me. He says, "Oh, your potassium is down." I'm not a fool. I'm not telling you to stay away from meds. Come on, some meds are necessary. But don't load yourself up with meds, because many times one counters another.

Lisa Ellison [35:32]: 
That's very true. Side effects can happen. 

Gayle [35:35]:
In fact, she said that her female doctor, because she had a little thing done, said her insides look better than my 40-year-olds', and she attributes it to not putting pharmaceuticals in her body. I don't take anything, you know, and at my age, you meet people, and I am single, and when you go on a date, it's hysterical, because you hear about every disease, every illness, every pill, every whatever. So, unfortunately, my siblings were not like that. My father was not like that. So, yeah, they just told me my cholesterol was high, and I don't know why you were encouraging me to take a statin when you preach not to. Anyway, I did not. I didn’t even know until I heard this that avocados are really good for lowering your cholesterol. 

I'm very, again, you know, if you get sick and you have an infection, you need an antibiotic. We're not... I'm not anti that. She's not anti... I don't know if you know this, but when I was working on Look at Us Now, Mother, I found my childhood diaries, which I hadn't read since I was a child, and I reread them, because as a child, I was writing and drawing in them. I didn't make the connection, but my skin was getting very dry, and to the point that it was... my hands, the skin was breaking. It was filled with plaque and split and bleeding. It was excruciating. I don't know if you want to see. Do you want to see?

Lisa Ellison [37:12]: 
You can share that.

Gayle [37:14]:
Okay, if you don't mind. It was pretty brutal. And this was four years ago. Okay, here we go. I think I could... can you see this?

Lisa Ellison [37:23]:
Oh, my goodness, yeah. Yikes. That looks so painful. Yeah.

Gayle [37:28]:
It was. So, that was four years... I live in New York, went to dermatologist, head of dermatology, first eczema, then psoriasis. Went to Chinatown, used Chinese herbs. Nothing helped. And I was known for my hands. I had gloves. I had to wear vinyl gloves. In fact, when COVID kicked in, and no one could get masks or gloves, I had leftover gloves because of my hands. When I'd answer the phone, and everybody knew, "Oh, Gayle, how are you?" "Oh, I'm in India.” Everybody was sending me the magic lotion and cream. Nothing helped. 

Four years into this, I ended up writing to my chiropractor and acupuncturist from years ago when I was living in LA, Dr. Wells, a healer, I sent him an email with my pictures. He says, "You need love." I said, "I know, but I'm alone now." Then he writes this little email, three emails. He writes back, saying, "What about your dog?" I write back, "She died." His last email was all I needed. He says, "You have to trick yourself." That's when I knew this was emotional. That's when I knew it was from reliving my childhood trauma. It came out through my hands, which is very interesting, because one of the things she did, because my mom is a fashionista, is she dressed me, so I looked gorgeous in organdy fabrics that itched, and I had welts everywhere. So, my skin is where every sort of emotional thing comes out, and hands are symbolic because you're holding on to things. Yeah, my skin and my hands were releasing. And I had three sessions. I was on a budget. We did it with Skype in those days, with an energy healer who introduced me to tapping emotional technique. Did three things every day: tapping and listening to the tapes from a master Chun Li who ended up in my inbox and in less than a month, my skin was back.

Lisa Ellison [39:27]:
That is amazing. And I think both things that you're saying, you know, both you, Mildred, and you, Gayle, is that trust yourself, trust your body. Your body is miraculous. It can heal itself in all kinds of ways that we don't even imagine. And like you, I've been working to lower my cholesterol. So, I think that's... and I have, I've lowered it, I think, 40 points, just with diet. So yes, I think there are amazing things that we can do.

Mildred [39:58]: 
You know, when...I go to a doctor, and they'll... and they say, "Please give me a list of your medication." I said, "amlodipine, five milligrams, and a baby aspirin." "Mrs. Kirschenbaum, I guess you don't understand me. I need a list of all your medications." I tell the same thing. She asks me the same question. I say, "Let's get something straight. Do you speak English?" I said, "So do I, that's what I take."

Lisa Ellison [40:33]:
I have a grandmother who's 93. She is determined to live to 100 as well, and she is like you, Mildred. I think she takes a fish oil pill, a vitamin D pill, and I think something to help her sleep, and that's it. So, she doesn't take any medications either. And I think that is part of longevity—it's really limiting those pharmaceuticals and treating your body as healthily as you can and listening to it.

Mildred [41:03]:
 Pharmaceuticals are necessary at times. Come on, if you have cancer or something... No, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

Lisa Ellison [41:14]: 
I'm glad you clarified, because I agree, and I'm not against them either. I think we all agree that when you are offered these, it's important to think about, "Is this something that is necessary? Like, do you always need it?" And of course, there are plenty of times when you do, but sometimes you don't. Like in the case of some people with statins, though not all people. My husband, he has to take a statin because he can’t lower his cholesterol. 

 Well, if people want to buy your book—because even though I know you're on a book launch right now, or a book tour right now, and this is going to air after that, it's going to be airing before Christmas. And this is a wonderful book for the holidays. It's a great gift book for anyone who just needs a little extra wisdom, or they really want to see proof that you can do anything at any age—what are the best ways for people to buy your book and to connect with you?

Gayle [42:11]: 
I would say, go to the website. Well, first, if they want to follow us, go to Instagram. I do post things on TikTok, but Instagram is really the main one. But the website—GayleKirschenbaum.com/books—is the best place to go. When you visit the website, you can read all about my mom and find all the codes and links to where you can buy the book. Of course, it's on Amazon, but if you buy directly from Ingram, where I have a link, you get a better deal. It's on Barnes & Noble, too, but online only. And, as I said, it's available in every format. We also have some events planned for early next year here in Florida.

Lisa Ellison [42:51]:
So, be sure to check out their website to stay up to date on what's happening. All the information about your Instagram page, your website, and where people can buy the book, along with links to the movies you've created, will be in the show notes. People can check those out, buy their copy of Mildred Mindset, and keep an eye out for your memoir, Gayle, because I know that’s coming out soon. It has been an absolute joy and delight to have the two of you on the podcast.

Gayle [43:27]: 
Thank you, Lisa. I love your podcast—I listen to it all the time.

Mildred [43:32]: 
Have a wonderful day. Bye now!