Transcript for Writing Your Resilience Episode 43
Breaking the Silence on Sexual Assault with Cheyenne Wilson

Lisa Ellison [0:00]:
Well, hello, Cheyenne, welcome to the Writing Your Resilience podcast. I am so glad that you are here today. 

Cheyenne [0:05]:
 Thank you for having me, Lisa. I'm excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this.

Lisa Ellison [0:09]:
 Well, we are going to have an important conversation, and I am so glad that you wrote your book, We Are the Evidence, which I have here with me. You also have it behind you, which I love. This is an important book about sexual assault, and we're going to talk about how people might use this book and why you wrote it throughout our time together. But I always like to begin by giving people a chance to share what they would like us to know about their project and themselves.
 
 

Cheyenne [0:44]:
 Thank you. So, We Are the Evidence has been my passion and the driving force of my life for nearly a decade. Writing this book and making sure this resource is available to those who need it is incredibly important because it wasn’t available when I needed it. When I went looking for a resource, nothing like this existed. Being able to create it and get it to those who need it has been a huge honor in my life.

Lisa Ellison [1:13]:
 Yeah, and I am so glad that you wrote it. As I was reading this, I kept thinking, I wish this had been available back when these things happened to me, which was back in the 1970s and 80s—so we're talking quite a while ago. But you know, we need to have these conversations, and we need to bust through the myths, which is one of the things that you do in this book. We're going to get into the book in a moment, but I was curious about something when I got the pitch for you to come on the show. Many people who are listening to this podcast are memoirists. They’re writing about their own stories, which is a powerful thing to do. But that’s not what you did. Can you walk us through why you chose to create this book versus a memoir, and how it's doing a different kind of work?

Cheyenne [2:06]:
 Absolutely. I love this question. I remember two moments when I knew I wanted to write this book, and both times it was out of frustration that this resource didn’t exist for me. I was upset that there wasn’t a comprehensive book to help me understand what I had just experienced—whether I could report, what that would look like, going to court, preparing to go to court, healing afterward, and what options I had for moving forward. That just didn’t exist. There were two times where I wished it had. One was when I was getting ready to report. For a long time, I dismissed my personal experience as assault, thinking I had asked for it and pushed it away. But years later, I found a document that said it’s most common to be assaulted by someone you know. If I had known that, I probably would have reported much sooner. But when I was ready to report, I didn’t know how. I was trying to Google it, and with my trauma brain flustered and confused, I just wanted something to help me instead of navigating it blind. That was one moment.

The next moment was when I lost my case. I took my case to court, and we lost. I locked myself in the bathroom, having a big emotional moment, and I knew I wanted to write a book to help people know how to move forward. I kept thinking, If I had reported sooner, maybe I would have won the case. That’s not what it’s about, but it could have helped. So that’s why I wanted to write a prescriptive nonfiction book—something that might not have all the details but could at least get people started, answer some questions, and direct them to where they need to go. Writing a memoir and sharing my story never felt right for me. I didn’t feel like sharing my story was what I wanted to do. I wanted to help people feel comfortable sharing their stories with those they needed to because it’s about all of us. So many of us have experienced this.

Lisa Ellison [4:05]:
 Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I might be getting these statistics wrong because it's been a while since I’ve looked at them, but I’m pretty sure it’s one in five overall, and I think it’s one in three girls and one in six boys. Does that line up with what you know?

Speaker 1 [4:20]:
 I believe so. Last time I read the statistics, I believe that was correct. Unfortunately, they keep changing as we learn more.

Lisa Ellison [4:23]:
 You talked about something just now that I think is really important. You reported and took your case to court. Obviously, the outcome was different from what you hoped, but one of the things you discuss in your book is the importance of holding people accountable, and how even that can be empowering. What was that like for you—to report and go through the court process, and how did you go from the devastation of losing the case to feeling empowered enough to write about this?

Cheyenne [5:16]:
 After I lost my case, I was being walked to the car, trying to hold it together because, in court, you can’t really show big emotions. The bailiff, who was a wonderful woman, started crying. She told me that she had been assaulted but had never told anyone. She hadn’t reported or disclosed to her family or loved ones. She didn’t know her options, and she hadn’t seen anyone else talk about it because sexual assault wasn’t discussed for a very long time. That moment, seeing that I could help her feel seen and maybe help her on her path to healing, really gave me the drive to write the book. Throughout the process, there were many times when I wasn’t sure I wanted to finish—it got frustrating and overwhelming. But hearing from survivors who follow me on Instagram, telling me how much the book helped them, kept me going. Just knowing I could make the road a little easier for someone else is what really kept me going.

Lisa Ellison [6:27]:
 Yeah, and I love this resource because you take us through several things. You address the myths around sexual assault, so people can begin to assess their experiences: Was this assault? Was this abuse? Did I consent, or not? What does consent really look like? Then, you take us through the reporting process and the legal process, which is a mystery for most people. You also explore how to heal, regardless of what happens. I love that you have this arc, showing all the ways people can use this book. It not only helps us heal, but also gives us a way to talk about these issues. You discuss the importance of community and connecting with the sexual assault community. Tell me more about that. Why is it so important for survivors, and why was it important for you?

Cheyenne [7:24]:
 For a long time, sexual assault was seen as something committed by a stranger in a dark alley with a weapon—very violent. That’s the image I had in my head. Some of the things I did after the assault, which I didn’t know were common trauma responses, I wouldn’t have recognized unless I had connected with the community. Talking to survivors and hearing how varied their stories are, but also how many common experiences we share, was eye-opening. For example, the "friend response" is something a lot of people experience but didn’t talk about for a long time. The friend response is when you might appease the person who harmed you, or even initiate contact after the assault to feel some sense of control. That sounds wild to many people until they realize it’s a common trauma response. The community helps you see that. It makes your story feel less unbelievable, and you can start to believe yourself more. That’s why community is so important—it helps normalize your experience.

Even today, on social media, we posted about how just being married isn’t a sign of consent. The conversations that sparked were so important. Many people are isolated or alone, and they might not know that. But then, seeing all the responses from other survivors saying, “My spouse thinks marriage equals consent, and I’m frustrated or scared,” helps them feel more normalized.

Lisa Ellison [8:51]:
I’m so glad that you posted that. One of my clients, Tia Levings, just published her book A Well-Trained Wife: My Escape from Christian Patriarchy, which is making the rounds, and that is a huge piece of her book. I think some people have been socialized to believe that once you're married, you give up the right to say no—that that’s no longer part of your experience. And you are absolutely right: you need to consent every single time, no matter if you're married or not. Rape can happen in marriage. Having these conversations is so important.

I can say for myself, I was sexually abused or sexually assaulted by four different people by the time I was 18 years old. And when I was... I’m trying to think how old I was... 28 years—no, 26 years old—I started to really deal with what had happened to me. Prior to that, I had told myself several stories like, if the person is under 18, it can’t be sexual assault or abuse because adults commit these crimes. People under 18 don’t commit these crimes. And because I had regular contact with that person, and this happened for a long time in a couple of these cases, I thought I was consenting, or maybe it wasn’t as bad as I thought.

When I went to a sexual abuse treatment program, which I was a part of for an entire year—it wasn’t inpatient, it was outpatient—there were 30 other survivors. We began to talk in large groups about our experiences, and then we had small group therapy. Like you, I found that there were so many commonalities between us, and it normalized my experience. It helped me own my story—the reality of the story.

At least for me, what I can say is that the first day I went into that room for that program, I almost left because being there made it real, and that was really scary. And I think that’s important for people to hear: it’s going to be scary, and that’s okay. What happened was this woman saw me get ready to leave, and she came over—and I’m going to tear up now—and she wrapped her arms around me, and she said, "It’s okay." Knowing that she was there, that she got it, and that maybe she wanted to leave the room too on her first day, helped me realize that there would be someone there. I think that’s so important because people who aren’t survivors don’t always get what the experience is like.

Cheyenne [11:42]:
That’s beautiful. I think of what that woman was able to do for you by seeing you, telling you to stay, that it was safe, and that you were wanted in this space. I know you’ve carried that on, and it’s like a little drop that ripples out. I think that’s what community does: it creates ripples and brings us together. That’s a beautiful story. What a cool program to be part of—that sounds really healing.

Lisa Ellison [12:10]:
 I say thank you every day that it was available to me because, at that time, this was a program run through the United Way, and I didn’t have the money to pay for therapy. I think my sessions were $8, which was all I could afford. So, I say thank you every day. One of the ways I paid it forward was that when I was getting my clinical training, I worked as a pro bono therapist for a local organization that provides mental health care for women who can’t always afford it. I think being part of communities that normalize our experiences is so important for all of us.

I imagine there are probably some listeners right now thinking, “How would I find these communities? What if I’m isolated? What if I don’t know where these things are?” What would you tell them?

Cheyenne [13:08]:
I came from a rural area, so I know how hard it can be to find a community. Some people just say, “Oh, go to your local resource center,” but you might not have that if you live in a rural area. So, I think being creative is really important. I try to list online resources, hotline numbers, in-person resources to check out, and social media pages in the book because you do have to get creative.

If you’re looking for that sense of community, I’d say a hotline is a good place to start, based on my experience. I love hotlines—I was so afraid to use them, but when I was in a really dark place, they helped me find resources around me or online resources that could help. Another thing to consider: if you don’t have in-person community or resource centers around you, try to find sexual assault resources online. There are advocates you can connect with in metro areas, but still, try to find some in-person community, even through hobbies or passions at work, because having people in your corner that you physically see can be really helpful too. Thinking outside the box is big, and social media is great too. It’s come a long way, and while there are negative sides, there are a lot of positive resources. So, start with Instagram, Facebook, and follow Internet safety guidelines, vet resources, but that can be a helpful place to start.

Lisa Ellison [14:37]:
I like that you’re sharing those resources because I agree. I follow some of these resources in the Complex PTSD communities on Instagram, and I think there can be really good communities out there. You do need to vet them because someone can just start saying things and think they know the truth when they might not have the training to understand the complexities of your situation. So, I love that you’re sharing those resources. People need to follow you on Instagram and get your book, so they can find those.

I totally agree—in person is the most important, even if you’re not talking about what happened to you. Being in a community with others is how we feel safe. I recently did some training on polyvagal theory, and I’m researching that. For those of you who don’t know what polyvagal theory is, I’ll put something in the show notes, but in brief, this is a way of thinking about our nervous system and how we respond to stress. The most important thing you can do is make yourself feel safe. When you’re in a community with others, it helps engage your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the part of your nervous system that helps you rest, digest, and feel safe—so nourishing for your body. You want to make sure you do that.

Cheyenne [16:05]:
Yes, absolutely. It can be hard because so many of us experience sexual violence within our community. So, branching out and building a new community can be scary at first, but it has so many benefits. My therapist even suggested I look into D&D groups, just to build a community of people with similar hobbies. It goes a long way.

Lisa Ellison [16:28]:
 I love that idea. Everyone listening: make a list of 10 things you love, write them down, and look to see how you can connect with others in your area around those things. Use that as a starting place, especially if there aren’t resource centers nearby. But I also love the idea of the hotline because if you’re in a dark place, you need to talk to someone who doesn’t just know your experience—they know how to hold space for it and what to do.

Cheyenne [17:00]:
Absolutely. Writing about the hotline in the book, I give a little of my experience with it. Using it felt vulnerable, because there’s a stigma around hotlines, and I don’t know where it comes from—maybe it’s just me—but talking to someone trained to hold that space for me helped so much. It really helped me decompress and feel seen. So, I advocate for using those when needed.

Lisa Ellison [17:34]:
I agree that there can be a stigma around that. One of the biggest fears is that if I call these places, maybe I'll get locked up or, you know, maybe it means something about me. And I can say, you know, in terms of suicide hotlines, because I have called them a number of times, not necessarily for myself, but when I was a clinician, I would call them and say, "Hey, this is a non-emergency call. I want to know more about your resources. I want to know about these different things," and they were so helpful. So, you know, if you know someone who is struggling, you can call these places, tell them it's a non-emergency call, and ask, "How can I get resources and get familiar with that?" The more we all get familiar and comfortable with these hotlines, the more we can use them, because they're going to become something that feels safe.

As I was reading your book, I could easily see how this book would be really helpful if your experience was recent. So, I'm going to ask a very general question: How long ago was your assault? How many years?

Cheyenne [18:53]:
 It was 10 years ago.

Lisa Ellison [18:54]:
 Okay, so 10 years ago. And I know that books take a long time to write. How long did it take you to write this book?

Cheyenne [19:00]:
 I was doing the math with my writing coach and mentor this weekend. I think I started in 2019, and that was the early stages, like writing the outline, the table of contents, all of that, and then writing the book proposal. But I really started the project, I think, in 2019, and then it got picked up in 2022. So, it took me like a year and a half to actually write the book from there.

Lisa Ellison [19:21]:
 Anyone who's working on memoir, is going to say, "What?" Because memoirs tend to take so much longer, but narrative nonfiction books are a little different. So, 10 years is a good period of time, but it's not 30 years. Some people listening to this podcast may have had an experience of sexual assault or abuse when they were young, and many decades have passed. How would you invite them to use this book? 

Cheyenne [19:57]:
 In the early stages of writing this book, I met a woman who had been assaulted when she was in college, and she was in her late 60s, early 70s, I believe. It had been a long time, and she hadn't told a single person about her assault ever in her entire life. She told me after hearing about the book. I kept her in mind while writing it, because my goal was for this to be something anyone could pick up and gain value from. Part of that, for me, meant having a really detailed, expanded table of contents. I wanted it to be something where you could open it, find the topic that applies to you, and jump right to it. So, the whole book might not be for you, but there will be parts that hopefully can be of benefit.

We're all still healing, growing, and learning, and we are all still being advocates. I think the book can be helpful in those ways. For example, I included some ways to think outside the box for healing. What works for one person might not work for another, so I covered different types of therapies, different ways to build relationships and community. But even if your assault happened a long time ago, and you feel like you've done all the healing you needed to, still having a copy of the book or knowing about it can help you give it to someone else who might be more lost or unsure of what to do next. Maybe they were assaulted recently, or maybe it was a long time ago, but they're just now feeling comfortable enough to explore disclosing. The book could still be a resource. I tried to include things that are practical and helpful. One example is how to disclose that you've been assaulted. During the #MeToo movement, a lot of people started sharing their stories, even if their assault happened a long time ago. The book gives ideas on how to disclose, and how to tell your loved ones. Every time I say I was sexually assaulted; it opens a wound. It's hard, even though I've done a lot of healing.

Lisa Ellison [22:14]:
 Yeah, absolutely. That disclosure process is really important, and I loved how you even created some scripts that people could use to help them find the words. One thing that can happen, especially with sexual assault and abuse, is the amount of shame and stigma surrounding it. In some families, the victim can be dismissed if they say something, because of family dynamics or other factors. That can compound the shame. So having someone help you find the words is really helpful. I love that you have the table of contents set up the way you do, and that there's a lot of white space, which makes it very skimmable and easy to find the resources you need. It allows readers to customize their use of the book based on where they are. As I was reading, I thought about my disclosures: Who have I told? Who haven't I told? Would I ever take anything to court? In my case, it's been so many years, I think it's far past the statute of limitations. I actually looked it up for the state of New York, and it is past that. But even if you don't take things to that level, being able to explore those thoughts—what might have happened if I did that—and understanding whether disclosing or not is the right choice in specific situations or relationships, is empowering. It made me realize that even if the statute of limitations were different, I don’t know if reporting would benefit my life or healing at this stage. It could cause more harm. If it were more recent, it might be different. So, I loved how your book let me explore these issues again, even though I’ve done a lot of healing.

Cheyenne [24:27]:
 Thank you for sharing that. Having information is so empowering. Hopefully, readers can go through the book and get what they need to feel more confident in the decisions they're making moving forward, or to process decisions they've made in the past and better understand why they made them. That was a big thing for me when I was writing. I think I had a note somewhere that said, "Information is what empowers people." I think that's really helpful.

Lisa Ellison [24:56]:
 Absolutely, especially since so much of this is shrouded in silence.

Cheyenne [25:00]:
 Yeah, yeah. With the information, I tried to balance it with sections written by survivors to show validation and empowerment. So even if the information isn’t what you're needing right now, the empowerment and validation from survivor stories can still bring value. I hope there’s that balance.

Lisa Ellison [25:29]:
 Absolutely. I love those stories. Having this book is proof that healing happens, because we can’t heal if we aren’t willing to confront our stories in some way. When you were trying to recruit these survivors, what process did you go through, and what did people tell you after they’d written their stories?

Cheyenne [25:56]:
 I had experts contribute, and honestly, coordinating with them was trickier than with the survivors. I found so many survivors who wanted to share their stories, especially knowing it could help others. That’s something I love about this community—the drive to help each other and make healing or reporting just a little easier for those who come after us. I reached out to people I knew personally because I realized there was some risk in writing for a book that would be published. I knew most of them personally, and a couple I knew through social media. Everyone was willing to share their story, which was beautiful and says so much about how we want to help each other.

Lisa Ellison [26:53]:
 Absolutely. What was the most surprising thing that happened while writing this book?

Cheyenne [26:59]:
 On a personal level, I realized how much healing I still had to do. I didn’t expect that. I thought I was good to go. I’m really good at compartmentalizing, but to write a book about this topic, especially if it’s something you’ve experienced, you can’t compartmentalize. You have to open up that box that holds your story, look inside, and think, "What did I need to hear at that time?" That was really challenging in a surprising way. I’d encourage anyone writing about their experience to make sure they have a strong support network and to be in therapy, or something similar, because things will come up. For me, when the book was coming out, I realized I was afraid to be seen. After my assault, I spent so long being invisible. Suddenly, I wasn’t going to be invisible anymore, and I had to work through that. So, all kinds of things come up when you’re writing.

Lisa Ellison [27:59]:
 That is a huge thing that so many writers face, especially if they have trauma in their background, whether it is sexual assault or something else. You know, traumas often happen in places where our pain is either not seen, or we are seen in a way that's very negative, which is what happens in sexual assault and sexual abuse. So, it's very common for the act of being seen—publishing your work, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of everything—to be a terrifying moment for people.

Cheyenne [28:30]:
 I had to work through that. I'm still working through that.

Lisa Ellison [28:32]:
 So, who's on your team, and what's one strategy you're using to work through those things?

Cheyenne [28:39]:
 I have a therapist who is wonderful. He's a great support for me. I also want to mention that I've tried a lot of therapists, and it took me a while to find one who challenged me and with whom I could communicate effectively. So, you don't write off therapy just because one therapist didn't work for you. I'm very fortunate to have an amazing therapist, a supportive partner who is my number one cheerleader, and a family that does everything they can to support me. I also really try to hold space for "me" time, which can be hard, but finding quiet time to do things I enjoy and staying connected with myself is really important.

Lisa Ellison [29:19]:
 That is so, so important. You just brought up something I really want to unpack for a second, if that’s okay, and that’s the concept of finding the right therapist. Not every therapist is right for everyone, and many of us have had bad therapy experiences, which can turn people off or make them feel like, “Oh, maybe therapy works for some people, but it won’t work for me.” How did you know that this therapist was the right one for you?

Cheyenne [29:51]:
 Well, again, I tried several therapists, so I knew which types wouldn’t work for me. Having those negative experiences helped me in making comparisons. My current therapist was the right one because of how he communicated right from the start. He was very upfront and direct, which was important for me because my trauma brain can’t handle uncertainty. He set great boundaries from the beginning, so I knew what we’d discuss, how I could reach out, and that made me feel safe and secure. What I wanted, and where I was in my healing journey, was someone who could help me understand my thought patterns and behaviors and how those connected, then work on modifying them to be healthier. That’s why I knew he was right for me. I’ve worked with therapists who just want to rehash the experience, which is super beneficial for some people, depending on where they are in their healing journey. But I didn’t want to keep reliving everything. I wanted to focus on the present and move forward by modifying my thought patterns to something healthier.

Lisa Ellison [31:01]:
 What I’m hearing is that this might have been more like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) or trauma-informed CBT. Does that sound correct?

Cheyenne [31:06]:
 Yeah, yeah. That’s exactly it.

Lisa Ellison [31:07]:
 CBT can be a good modality if you want to focus on your thoughts and moving forward. Just to unpack this a bit—and I’m putting you on the spot, so feel free to say "I don’t know" or "pass"—you said your therapist was direct. Could you give an example of a general question he might ask that made you feel safe?

Cheyenne [31:37]:
 Sure. When I’m talking, he’ll often have me pause and stop to say, "You just said this sentence and worded it this way." Then, he’ll ask me direct questions about why I chose those words instead of others. That’s really helpful. He’s also direct in pointing out patterns he notices, so we work on them together. It’s very collaborative. For me, it’s about knowing he’s paying attention and asking the right questions in the moment, so I don’t feel like I have to keep rehashing my experience over and over again.

Lisa Ellison [32:21]:
 That was a beautiful and perfect answer. What I heard was that by stopping you, he showed he was actively listening and wanted to unpack something with you, rather than just letting it slide by. One of my earliest experiences with a therapist was quite different. He always had this notebook and was constantly writing in it—never saying anything. It didn’t make me feel safe. Allowing yourself to decide whether you’re comfortable with a therapist is so important. As someone who worked as a therapist, I always tell people they have the right to interview potential therapists. You can say, "I’m not sure if you’re the right person for me, can we have a meeting?" You’ll likely have to pay for that time, but they might give you 15 minutes for a consultation. You can ask questions like, “How familiar are you with sexual assault and sexual abuse? How do you treat these issues? What strategies do you use?” I even ask, and this is just me, “Do you have personal experience with sexual abuse or sexual assault?” For some survivors, that’s important because they want to feel like their therapist understands, not just at a book level, but from experience. They might say yes or no, but they won’t share details, as that would be inappropriate. Being willing to ask those questions is important.

When I was in a sexual abuse treatment program, I did share my story and the specific things that had happened, which was helpful at the time because I needed to build language around the experience. But repeating it over and over again isn’t helpful. That reinforces the neural networks in my brain related to trauma. So, whether you’re working on your thoughts and behaviors, or focusing on how the trauma affects your nervous system—asking yourself, “How do I feel in this moment?” or “What makes me feel safe or unsafe?”—both approaches can be really helpful. I’d say, for most trauma survivors, dealing with the nervous system is just as, if not more, important than processing the full story.

Cheyenne [34:54]:
 I agree 100%. Understanding your triggers and how to work through them, how to move through them, and understanding your nervous system is incredibly important. Talking through your experience has its place, and something like EMDR includes that, but I think it’s really helpful when therapy challenges you to understand how trauma has impacted your life and how you can regain some control over that. People sometimes hesitate to start therapy because they think all they’ll do is talk, but there are so many different types of therapy to try.

Lisa Ellison [35:29]:
 When I was a therapist, people would often come in saying, “I’m here to talk about my worst trauma.” They’d expect me to say, “Go ahead, share it all,” but I’d stop them. I’d say, “We need to know more about you and your resources, and how you handle things.” You don’t go there on day one. If you’re writing your story, thinking it’ll make you feel better, it might—or it might bring up a lot of feelings. I invite anyone writing their story to make space around the time when they do it, so they can care for themselves. Ensure you have a support system, whether it’s a therapist, a bodyworker, or close friends who can help you manage your emotions. And focus on how you’re making meaning of the experience now. It’s not just about what happened; write about how you coped, how you see the world now, and what strengths you called upon then and now to survive and thrive.

Cheyenne [36:40]:
 I mean, very similar again to EMDR. You're not supposed to just jump into it. You're supposed to set up your safety network, your plan, and understand what you're going to do after a very exhausting day of processing your trauma. I would imagine that something similar you would say to people who are writing about their experiences specifically is that you have to have a plan in place for how you're going to process the days that are really hard after writing.

Lisa Ellison [37:03]:
 Absolutely! I also say, start with your resources, because resourcing is the first step in EMDR. You really want to understand where your resources are, what your safe space is, and how you're going to get yourself back to that. Well, we could be talking forever about this; there are so many great things. But I always like to wrap up with a couple of questions. You've talked about how you cope, so I think I'm going to pass that. But you wrote this book in a year and a half. Okay, that's super fast for books. Bravo, especially since it's so good and you worked with a book coach. So, what's the best piece of writing advice that you have received?

Cheyenne [37:41]:
 Yeah, so I wrote the book in a year and a half, but we’d already completely structured it, because, in the process of publishing, you have a book proposal. So, the book was almost written; it was kind of just like filling in the rest of it for that last year and a half. But the best piece of advice I think I got was knowing your why. Like, why are you writing? Are you writing this for you? Are you writing it for someone else? What is the purpose of writing? 

I think fully understanding those two things really helps you to write and get the results that you want. If you're not sure or unclear, I think you'll get lost. You won’t get as much from it as you could. So, for me, knowing I wanted to write this for other people—this was not really meant as something that I was going to heal through. Of course, I did, but I was writing it for other people. The why was because it didn't exist for me. Those two pieces helped me know, as I was writing, what needed to be said, what needed to happen next, and what gaps I had, and where I had to find experts to fill them.

Lisa Ellison [38:40]:
 Absolutely! What I would say for anyone who is working on a memoir, a translation for that is, first, do it for yourself. But when you are looking to publish, you need to understand your audience, and you need to understand why it is for them. So, I love that you have that why; it’s so very important. Well, if people want to buy a copy of We Are the Evidence, how would they do that? And how can they connect with you?

Cheyenne [39:03]:
 We Are the Evidence is available at all places you buy your books, really. You should be able to find it anywhere. I always like to throw in a plug to support your local bookstore; that's really important. Then feel free to reach out to me on social media or on my website. My email is there, and especially if you're writing or have published, I love to share the work that other people are doing. We have to stick together as writers who are talking about such a heavy topic; we have to support each other, spread the word, and I'm always happy to talk to someone who's on that journey.

Lisa Ellison [39:34]:
 Well, I love that, and I hope everyone buys a copy. I hope they actually do three things. Number one, I hope you have a copy on hand for yourself, for the times when you need this information, so you stay educated and you can support others. I hope you buy a second copy for the person that you're going to meet someday who's going to need this information, and you just have it on hand to hand out. And number three, I hope that you ask for it at your local library, because there is going to be someone out there who's going to need this, but who may not have the money to buy it.

Cheyenne [40:06]:
 The library push—I’m very passionate about it—because someone can go in, check it out from the library if it’s not safe to go home with, read it there, return it, and come back. So, thank you for sharing that as well.

Lisa Ellison [40:14]:
 Yeah, and especially in situations where intimate partner violence is happening, where someone is in a coupling situation, it may be that they are trying to understand what's happening to them, and it's not safe. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure. And thank you so much for writing this book, Cheyenne.

Cheyenne [40:35]:
 Thank you for having me. This has been wonderful.